One year later: how do you feel about the Lucic/Neal swap?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Only July 2nd 2022 Lucic will have only $1M owed to him and a season to play.

Wouldn't be surprised if he retires shortly after.

I'm skeptical of whether it actually works that way? AFAIK Signing bonus money is no different than salary, aside from the date it is paid. It is still subject to escrow, and I presume conditional on showing up for 'work'.

Does he 'agree' to let the trainers put an allergen on his gear at training camp? Maybe...

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'm skeptical of whether it actually works that way? AFAIK Signing bonus money is no different than salary, aside from the date it is paid. It is still subject to escrow, and I presume conditional on showing up for 'work'.

See Miikka Kiprusoff.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

See Miikka Kiprusoff.

Capfriendly shows his deal has including no signing bonuses, so it was 1.5M he walked away from.

I'm saying I don't think Lucic can keep the signing bonus money if he retires the next day.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Capfriendly shows his deal has including no signing bonuses, so it was 1.5M he walked away from.

I'm saying I don't think Lucic can keep the signing bonus money if he retires the next day.

I'm sure he can. The terminology on the contract is likely just bonus paid on this or that day.

After that day, you retire.

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, on July 1st, the money goes into his bank account. You can't take it back.

[Bingo]

So then he does just have a million bucks for the final season. That's a pretty big factor in this trade as well.

[opendoor]

It's not that simple. I'm skeptical that the NHL is going to allow a player to get 75% of his salary for a season in July, retire before the season starts, and then have his cap hit disappear. They would likely see that as cap circumvention.

It's not something that is really settled precedent in the NHL, but there's a reason Shipachyov had to repay 96% of his signing bonus after spending about 4% of the season on Vegas' roster before leaving to go back to the KHL. I would expect a similar proration for a player who retires before the season starts after receiving a signing bonus.

[powderjunkie]

Have any of you ever paid a deposit to get a carpet installed? Or any other similar job? Once they have 50% in their account, can they just walk away with your money and you have no other recourse? No, the contract says the money is for them showing up to install your carpet.

An SPC explicitly states what a player is being paid for:

The Player agrees to give his services and to play hockey in all NHL Games, All Star
Games, International Hockey Games and Exhibition Games to the best of his ability under the
direction and control of the Club in accordance with the provisions hereof.
The Player further agrees,
(a) to report to his Club's Training Camp at the time and place fixed by the Club, in
good physical condition,
(b) to keep himself in good physical condition at all times during the season,
(c) to give his best services to the Club and to play hockey only for the Club unless
his SPC is Assigned, Loaned or terminated by the Club,

I glanced through the CBA to see if I could find an illustration of this particular scenario, but the words 'bonus' and 'retirement' each appear hundreds of times.

It doesn't matter if a team wants to pay and not receive the services since it's governed by a CBA and SPC. The league would probably rule that if the Flames really want to pay Lucic for nothing, his cap hit stays, too.

[agulati]

Good time to give this thread a bump, with Neal being waived today.

Doesn’t diminish the fact that Lucic is overpaid, but his start to the season has been decent, and he is fitting in quite well on the line with Mangiapane and Backlund. He was fitting in well with Ryan and Dube, and Bennett and Dube towards the end of last season/playoffs too.

[TheScorpion]

I would contend that his start has far surpassed decent and ventured into the realm of very good.

And that might be underselling it a bit, honestly. Who knows for how long his current level of play will persist but at this point, he's legitimately making the Mangiapane/Backlund line better.

re: below — I enjoyed writing that one. Weird coincidence that it so happened to come out just four hours after Neal went on waivers... wrote it all before that happened!

[agulati]

Also came across this in depth article by our very own thescorpion. Thought might be good fodder for discussion.

https://flamesnation.ca/2021/02/13/a...e-contributor/

[Itse]

Originally Posted by agulati

Also came across this in depth article by our very own thescorpion. Thought might be good fodder for discussion.

https://flamesnation.ca/2021/02/13/a...e-contributor/

"The Dough Line"?

Nah. It's another 3M line

[TheScorpion]

Haha, I wanted to try something new. Besides I can't think of it as a 3M Line without Tkachuk.

You've got Eat Bread and two $5 million+ guys on the third line. That's a lot of dough.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Haha, I wanted to try something new. Besides I can't think of it as a 3M Line without Tkachuk.

You've got Eat Bread and two $5 million+ guys on the third line. That's a lot of dough.

I enjoy your articles and contributions a lot, TheScorpion, but "The Dough Line" is just awful. Stop it. Please, for the love of god, stop.

[agulati]

The logic against 3M is also that it used to be 3 first names. Michael Frolik, Mikael Backlund and Matthew Tkachuk. Doesn't work with Mangiapane. I liked the MMA line idea thrown on Fan 960. Fits with Lucic. Mangiapane is feisty too.

[TheScorpion]

D'oh.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by opendoor

It's not that simple. I'm skeptical that the NHL is going to allow a player to get 75% of his salary for a season in July, retire before the season starts, and then have his cap hit disappear. They would likely see that as cap circumvention.

It's not something that is really settled precedent in the NHL, but there's a reason Shipachyov had to repay 96% of his signing bonus after spending about 4% of the season on Vegas' roster before leaving to go back to the KHL. I would expect a similar proration for a player who retires before the season starts after receiving a signing bonus.

That is correct. The signing bonus is part of his compensation for that year. If he retires, he would have to repay a prorated portion based on the timing of his retirement.

Kiprosoff was due $1.5M in his last season, and he walked away from it.

The essential difference between characterizing compensation vs. salary is the timing if it, and IIRC, a player gets that bonus during a lockout. Essentially, rich teams can compensate their players a marginal amount more (based on the time value of money) without affecting the cap.


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[Textcritic]

Wow. Some of the takes in this thread are astonishingly bad in retrospect. Of course it is not fair to roast people for their inability to predict the future, but the way in which a few posters doubled-down on their intractable hatred for this trade is kind of embarrassing.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by agulati

The logic against 3M is also that it used to be 3 first names. Michael Frolik, Mikael Backlund and Matthew Tkachuk. Doesn't work with Mangiapane. I liked the MMA line idea thrown on Fan 960. Fits with Lucic. Mangiapane is feisty too.

M And M is much better

Milan Andrew Mikael

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

M And M is much better

Milan Andrew Mikael

I didn’t realize why people kept saying M and M reflecting that line. I used to think that Mangiapane’s contribution was getting ignored.