[News] All-encompassing Bennett trade discussions thread

[Red]

I rest my case.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

For me, once a player leaves the team, even one of my favourites, I find it pretty hard to muster a lot of feelings for them, especially say, after a season. Including Iginla, Reg, or any of the cup winning team, etc.

To some degree some posters want players to do well to say I told you so as much as they want it because they like the guy. I’m certain that would have been the case with Sven, for example, if it had happened.

Well, looking at former Flames around the league, I'm certainly happy guys like Byron, Kulak, and Brodie seem to be having success.

Am I emotionally invested in them? Not really, they're a blur. But it's still nice to catch the occasional Habs game and see Byron go ball to the walls. I guess the most accurate feeling I'd refer to it as is "nostalgia".

If Bennett were to get traded and have a William Karlsson type breakout elsewhere, I'd be

1) Frustrated that the Flames couldn't find a way to get that breakout here
2) Happy for the player, who always gave 100%
3) Happy for the Flames scouts who drafted him
4) and then... a whole lot of indifference

As for being a fan of the team or the player?

I'm a fan of both.

I don't watch pro sports to watch robots play the game. I don't watch major league pro spots to watch minor league level players like Rinaldo or such play the game either.

I watch pro sports to watch great athletes do things that the amateur athletes cannot do. Sam Bennett's career has had moments of excitement, and he's completed plays and shifts and games that have been top tier, plain and simple. So yeah, I do root for the players who play for my favourite team. That's what sports is about.

Now, on other teams, would I rather watch elite guys like Point, Crosby, Makar, MacKinnon etc?

Yeah, because they're at the pinnacle of the sport.

[DeluxeMoustache]

It’s really not that hard to appreciate two things, and when elements are at cross purposes, to prioritize. It’s what adults do

It was easy to watch the Pens when Iggy got to play with Crosby. I was disappointed when Sid promptly took a slap shot to the face . Then I watched more Bruins games than ever before. And when Iggy faced the Flames I wanted them Flames to win. Didn’t mind the tussle with Engelland. It’s really not that hard

As for constructing absurd binary narratives that nobody else is taking about, that’s bringing in the swamp

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by New Era

Did you display this much moral outrage when the Flames employed Bertuzzi or Marchment? No, you probably swallowed your pride and continued to cheer for the TEAM even though they had a couple of reprehensible ######bags on the roster. Yeah, easy to talk a big game about turning your back on the team, but reality is very different. The Flames employing a racist would not be the worst thing they have ever done.



What's your problem? I was asked a question and I answered it honestly. And yes, it is Oiler fanish to be so invested in a player that you would put their interests above the team. When you are that invested in a player's individual success that you would cheer for their personal success over that of the goals and success of the team, you're lost. They honestly don't care that the Oilers suck and lose, so long as McDavid and Draisaitl get their points. It's lame. I never understood how people could be so hoodwinked by the cult of personality and putting Fleury or Iginla above of the team. It is almost Trumpian and cultish in a way. I'm just not wired that way and only care about the team as a whole. Every player is a cog and a means to an end.

You can enjoy watching a certain player perform and even cheer for them without putting individual success above the team. And I am amazed at some people's ability to bring Trump into any discussion at all, what an utterly weird obsession.

Does someone with your perspective enjoy the sport of hockey at all?

[Calgary4LIfe]

I can't speak for most people, but I myself would not like hockey nearly as much if I didn't actually like players and cheered for those players. It provides extra passion for me as a fan. What the heck is wrong with loving certain players, even after they move on? This is some kind of a weird weakness?



I don't think I could care as much about hockey if it ALL came down to simple wins/losses. If you think of it that way, then how could anyone possibly enjoy having been a Flames' fan outside of the '89 season?



Players add personality to the game, another point of interest, and just more to cheer about. If that was taken out, I would certainly enjoy hockey way less - maybe to the point where I become just a casual fan who watches when nothing else is on.


For me, part of the enjoyment about hockey is watching players grow, their struggles, their accomplishments, etc. That's how you make it 'fun' as a fan whether this team is winning championships, or rebuilding. Taking that element out just makes it feel sterile and cold, and there is just so much less excitement and passion.


I cheered hard for Joey Mullen and Badger Bob on the Pens, and I loved watching them hoist the cup. Loved watching Nieuwendyk hoist it with Dallas as well. I cheered for Iginla to win it, and I am disappointed that he didn't. That makes me 'less of a fan'? Well, that's ok if I am. I seem to be enjoying hockey quite a lot, so I hope I don't become a bigger fan then.

[Red]

I am pretty sure we all care for the players and cheer for them when they are on our team. And some after.
But you can still put the team's needs ahead of player's. Doesnt mean that you don't like the player, there is room for both.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

I am pretty sure we all care for the players and cheer for them when they are on our team. And some after.
But you can still put the team's needs ahead of player's. Doesnt mean that you don't like the player, there is room for both.

Oh, I cheer for all Flames players hard give or take a Marchment. And certain ones more than others just because I like them more.

But when personal favourites like Titov or Mullen or Gilmour left, I didn’t follow them much, success or no. Same with Engelland, even though I liked him a lot.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

My problem is that through your answer you have revealed yourself to be a particularly callous and unpleasant person.

You don't know me, and trying to judge me by a post on a hockey forum is not just weak, but kind of pathetic. I don't judge your character or personality based on your posting (you're a self professed acerbic cyberbully, or what I would call an #######, and embrace that badge). You are very quick to make things personal, which is hardly fair because you get to hide behind that moderator status. So I will leave your personal attacks at that.

I have never done nor advocated for any of this. How is it so difficult for you to grasp that one can SIMULTANEOUSLY prioritise his own team's success while also extending best wishes for success to players from opposing teams.


How does any of this have any relevance to what I was talking about?

I never accused YOU of anything. I spoke in generalities and not understanding how anyone can become so attached to another individual that they would be okay with elevating them above the team they support, using Oiler fans and the glorification of McDavid as an example. If I used the term "you" it was in a general comparison between two positions - supporting the team or elevating an individual above the team. The fact that you tried to make this about you is laughable. I care less about you than I do about a professional athlete, who ironically doesn't give a squirt of piss about either of us.

Your rhetoric is extreme and disingenuous. It is offensive that you equate well-wishes for another human being with a sick, cult of personality.

Disingenuous? I'm not the one twisting the words of others here, Kip.

There are people in this world who are genuinely upstanding and worthy of my respect, admiration and endearment—even those whom you or I have never met. The fact that Iginla finished his professional hockey career playing in Pittsburgh, Boston, Denver and LA in no way diminishes his quality as a person and a player whom I admire. In the end, hockey is just a fun game, and part of what makes it fun is getting enjoyment from watching and marvelling at the great players from every team who play it.

And I respect you for holding that position. If that is a value that you hold dear, good on you. I hope you can respect people that only extend those feeling to people they have direct relations with and only to those who have proven their metal in that regard. In a world where there are so many charlatans that will prey on your good graces I have learned not to extend such respect to people who have not earned it. I have met too many people who I believed to have such qualities from afar only to be disappointed by their actions in real life.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You can enjoy watching a certain player perform and even cheer for them without putting individual success above the team.

Then do just that. Acknowledge the player's short comings, all the chances he's had, and recognize what he is. This isn't hard. But when I see a guy linked to a trade demand and then get promoted to the 1st line, and the fans being okay with that, the player has been elevated above the team. I remember how critical this board was of Sven Baertschi when he pulled the same shenanigans, and rightly so. So I don't get why Sam Bennett gets more slack than Sven Baertschi in this regard? If Sven got promoted to the 1st line he would have been burned at the stake, no?

It's funny but I liked Mark Jankowski and the work he put into becoming a pro. That was an underdog story to follow and he did pull at my heart strings. But he quickly proved that being a Flame was high on his list of things to do. He became just another player on the long list of players that have worn the Flaming C. Good luck to him in his future, but I don't care about him anymore and the only time I even think of him is when someone who had an axe to grind with him brings him up. The same thing will happen when Bennett moves on. I won't think about him because he doesn't matter. The only time I'll think about him is when someone who was a huge Bennett fan brings him up over something inconsequential he did for another team.

And I am amazed at some people's ability to bring Trump into any discussion at all, what an utterly weird obsession.

Trump has become a cultural icon for many things. He is a very good comparison for behaviors, one that people immediately understand. When it comes to over-entitled under-performers relying on the cult of personality to make their way through life and take people in, Donald Trump is the personification of that. So it is an easy comparison to make. I mean, seriously, politics in the US has been team sports for 60 years and the people have elevated him above their team, much to the detriment of that team and much to the chagrin of the nation.

Does someone with your perspective enjoy the sport of hockey at all?

Love the game. Mostly because I focus on the game and not the personalities. It's kind of why I like living in a city away from my team. When I go to a game I just go to enjoy the beauty and savagery of the sport and not get wrapped up in the clubhouse drama caused by the personalities.

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I cheered hard for Joey Mullen and Badger Bob on the Pens, and I loved watching them hoist the cup. Loved watching Nieuwendyk hoist it with Dallas as well. I cheered for Iginla to win it, and I am disappointed that he didn't. That makes me 'less of a fan'? Well, that's ok if I am. I seem to be enjoying hockey quite a lot, so I hope I don't become a bigger fan then.

And who said you couldn't? Someone asked me a question and I gave them a very frank and honest response. If you enjoy the players and developing a "relationship" with them, that is fine. That is you and you have every right to do it. I don't particularly get it, but if that helps you enjoy the game, more power to you. For me, I cheer for only the Calgary Flames. Once you're no longer a Flame they're dead to me. I can't think of a single player who moved on that I followed after they left. Mullen is probably the closest, but only in a passing way. I cheered for him because he was on the team I was hoping to win the cup, not because he was an ex-Flame. Because of free agency sports has evolved and with it my attention to individuals. Too much movement to get wrapped up in individua players. I mean, the goaltender you unmercifully made fun of last season is now the guy between your pipes trying to help your team win. From a bitter rival to your guy? Better to just cheer for the crest on the sweater IMO.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Oh, I cheer for all Flames players hard give or take a Marchment. And certain ones more than others just because I like them more.

But when personal favourites like Titov or Mullen or Gilmour left, I didn’t follow them much, success or no. Same with Engelland, even though I liked him a lot.

That almost sounds like you'd cheer harder for Bertuzzi when he is a Flame than say Iginla after he left. That's a dilly of a pickle to be in

Although I could see where departed players just kind of fall off the map when you don't get to watch their new teams play often. So it's not hard to move on from these players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

That almost sounds like you'd cheer harder for Bertuzzi when he is a Flame than say Iginla after he left. That's a dilly of a pickle to be in

Although I could see where departed players just kind of fall off the map when you don't get to watch their new teams play often. So it's not hard to move on from these players.

Nah, I just lost interest in whether Iginla had a good or bad night. WRT others mentioned above, no I had no real happiness for Newy or Mullen when they won cups on other teams. Badger Bob was a little different for me, mainly because I think he would have won in 1989 if he stayed one more year.

Bertuzzi - I didn’t really care one way or another. For some reason I disliked that less than Marchment. Mind you all of those were were at a time when the Flames kept shuttling vets in and about so there was less attachment to individual players if I’m being honest.

But at the end of the day I’m just saying how I am - I don’t judge others for keeping following and cheering for ex-Flames. Or for cheering against them for that matter. Unless they are just doing it to say “I told you so”.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by New Era

Did you display this much moral outrage when the Flames employed Bertuzzi or Marchment? No, you probably swallowed your pride and continued to cheer for the TEAM even though they had a couple of reprehensible ######bags on the roster.

I can't speak for anyone else, but while Bertuzzi was on the team I never spent a single dollar on tickets or merchandise, and I did not watch any regular-season games. In the playoffs, I weakened out of curiosity and, if memory serves, watched the elimination game in the first round. But the team that employed that reprehensible waste of skin did not receive one red cent from me.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There are people in this world who are genuinely upstanding and worthy of my respect, admiration and endearment—even those whom you or I have never met.

Great post. I'd add that there are also people who are genuinely loathsome and worthy of our scorn, anger, and even hatred. There is no reason to believe that Sam Bennett is one of those people. It is beyond me how some people can muster anything more than an occasional driveby post or two in a game thread to express their discontentment with him.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

You don't know me, and trying to judge me by a post on a hockey forum is not just weak, but kind of pathetic. I don't judge your character or personality based on your posting (you're a self professed acerbic cyberbully, or what I would call an #######, and embrace that badge). You are very quick to make things personal, which is hardly fair because you get to hide behind that moderator status. So I will leave your personal attacks at that.

I would like to think that I don't hide on this board. People here know who I am and I would hope that my virtual projection is a clear representation of my own persona, which is kind of the point: all we have in this space is what we choose to let others see. So, if this is the facade you have chosen to project, then it is on you if people draw unflattering conclusions as a result of it.

I never accused YOU of anything. I spoke in generalities and not understanding how anyone can become so attached to another individual that they would be okay with elevating them above the team they support, using Oiler fans and the glorification of McDavid as an example. If I used the term "you" it was in a general comparison between two positions - supporting the team or elevating an individual above the team. The fact that you tried to make this about you is laughable. I care less about you than I do about a professional athlete, who ironically doesn't give a squirt of piss about either of us.

I assumed as much, and perhaps was speaking out of turn on behalf of others.

Disingenuous? I'm not the one twisting the words of others here, Kip.

That makes two of us. (And it's "Kipp").

And I respect you for holding that position. If that is a value that you hold dear, good on you. I hope you can respect people that only extend those feeling to people they have direct relations with and only to those who have proven their metal in that regard. In a world where there are so many charlatans that will prey on your good graces I have learned not to extend such respect to people who have not earned it. I have met too many people who I believed to have such qualities from afar only to be disappointed by their actions in real life.

So, this I just cannot get behind. In a world so saturated by mistakes and unfairness I definitely think it is wrong to assume such an intractable default position of suspicion and cynicism. For as many times as each of us is well served by our first impression of other, we are all just as often misled by them. Perhaps you come by that honestly, and if that is the case then I am sorry for that. But if we cannot emerge beyond our own refuges of self-preservation for the good of others, then what hope is there?

I guess I am just an optimistic person, but this intentional projection of empathy and good will honestly helps to maintain my own psychological well being. The world does not have to be dark and full of terrors.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Why does everyone forget the purple drink line?

I was going to say, for about a 2-2.5 month stretch, having Ferland on that line made them dominant. Generating off the rush, Ferland’s shot and ability to finish in space, and having that smart physicality (ie no penalities) made them a bonafide top line. Unfortunately, they couldn’t sustain it.

Edit: to compare, Bennett checks the first box, but the other two are debatable or non-existent depending on who you ask.

[442scotty]

I sure miss having a healthy Ferland on the team. He was fun to watch.

[Pickle Juice]

Anything to see here? Frederick Gaudreau Has been recalled by the penguins.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by New Era

But when I see a guy linked to a trade demand and then get promoted to the 1st line, and the fans being okay with that, the player has been elevated above the team.

Wrong. Fans and management have simply acknowledged that there is an opportunity here to make the best of a difficult situation. If Sam has a good showing on the top line here for the next couple of weeks, it is mutually beneficial to both the player and the team. The Flames benefit because of his strong play, extra production, and increased trade value. Sam benefits because the extra points will give him more leverage on his next contract negotiation, and more teams will show interest in acquiring him in a trade.

Then there's the best best best case scenario... where Sam keeps playing better and better on that line, becoming very productive, to the point where he looks like a permanent fit there. It's not likely, but it's possible...

[Enoch Root]

Moving players up and down the lineup is not putting the player above the team. That is ridiculous.

The team is doing it. Because the best thing for the team is to maximize the collective value of the individual players. And that means finding the mix that works best.

If moving Bennett to the top line results in more success for the team - great! But even if all it does is increase Bennett's trader value, that is still to the team's benefit.

You know who is putting a player before the team? You are, New Era! Your irrational hatred for an individual player blinds you to what the team is trying to accomplish.

I am just amazed at how far off the rails you are on this.

[Lanny_McDonald]

12 points last year. 1 point this year. Worst +/- on the team. Demanded a trade. Every commentator in the world laughing at Bennett and his demand, basically telling him on national TV to shut up and play and worry about producing if he wants to make demands. Yeah, I'm so unhinged. So I guess that makes all of them unhinged as well. Good company to be in I guess.

[DeluxeMoustache]

You do know they have stopped talking about it a length

Join them