[News] All-encompassing Bennett trade discussions thread

[Iggy599]

I love Sam. He has something that makes a fan root for him. But I’ll admit he is so polarizing given his ups and downs. I hope he is a Flame for a long time but if traded, I hope it’s for a proven player that can help now or a player with as much upside.

[Sandman]

I remember the highlight videos that were going around in the year before Sam was drafted-video after video of him doing everything himself. Driving wide around the D and crashing the net, toe drags, dekes, etc. Looked like a One man gang. Problem is, he’s still trying to do the same stuff in the NHL, and he hasn’t learned that he can’t get away with it anymore. I’m a huge Bennett fan, and I have advocated plenty of times in the past for more of him on a better line, but he’s got to use his linemates better-and like a poster said above-he has the IQ enough to do that.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

This is ridiculous to me.

Both Lindholm and Tanev misplayed Poolparty as he came in. Bennett got a chance on goal in the offensive zone, and two defenceman and the centre were back in position defensively for the Flames. Bennett’s “total lack of awareness” did not cause that goal against at all.

If we’re worried about things playing out like that, then players shouldn’t go more than two strides over centre. Just cross centre, dump it in, and boom! 5 guys back all the time.

It's not like that though. Take a classic dangerous transitional play - a guy shoots real hard from the face-off dot, and misses the net. High and wide, short side. The puck goes a long way fast, and it's travelling toward the blue line, where an opposing forward collects it and leaves the zone. A defenseman has a quarter of a second to read that correctly and either collect the puck and hold the zone (something I think Rasmus is great at) or retreat. Same thing occurs here - Bennett flying in, bangs it hard off the pads and continues his path into the far corner. There's a dangerous situation occurring immediately after this, as he drifts into the corner the turnover has occurred.

What does Bennett do? Skates to the bench.

Now this would be a genius play if he could get in on one end of the bench and someone hops out at the other end, you see that sometimes, old school! But nothing like that happens in this case. It's 5 on 4 and the Oilers score. Did the Calgary defense do a good job? No, really that shouldn't have happened the way it did. But Bennett could and should have cut hard back to the center and pumped like hell to catch that play, take the trailing man at least.

So okay. The goal isn't his fault, as such. But there was a big opportunity for the Oilers there, and he did nothing to mitigate it, or even recognize it.

I'm not a hater, I love the guy, I hoped to see him as a full time center with reliable wingers this year. He's a hell of a fighter and one of the more truculent members of the club. I'd like a lot more Bennett. Or rather, a lot more "good" Bennett.

Just for argument's sake, watch his shift on the 1-1 goal. Do you think he was effective there?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

It's not like that though. Take a classic dangerous transitional play - a guy shoots real hard from the face-off dot, and misses the net. High and wide, short side. The puck goes a long way fast, and it's travelling toward the blue line, where an opposing forward collects it and leaves the zone. A defenseman has a quarter of a second to read that correctly and either collect the puck and hold the zone (something I think Rasmus is great at) or retreat. Same thing occurs here - Bennett flying in, bangs it hard off the pads and continues his path into the far corner. There's a dangerous situation occurring immediately after this, as he drifts into the corner the turnover has occurred.

What does Bennett do? Skates to the bench.

Now this would be a genius play if he could get in on one end of the bench and someone hops out at the other end, you see that sometimes, old school! But nothing like that happens in this case. It's 5 on 4 and the Oilers score. Did the Calgary defense do a good job? No, really that shouldn't have happened the way it did. But Bennett could and should have cut hard back to the center and pumped like hell to catch that play, take the trailing man at least.

So okay. The goal isn't his fault, as such. But there was a big opportunity for the Oilers there, and he did nothing to mitigate it, or even recognize it.

I'm not a hater, I love the guy, I hoped to see him as a full time center with reliable wingers this year. He's a hell of a fighter and one of the more truculent members of the club. I'd like a lot more Bennett. Or rather, a lot more "good" Bennett.

Just for argument's sake, watch his shift on the 1-1 goal. Do you think he was effective there?

Gaudreau was up ice with him as well. The trailing man for the Oilers wasn't even involved in the goal. It was a rapid play back up the ice with Poolparty and McDavid doing a quick give and go.

You're on a witch hunt at this stage. The 1-1 goal, he pretty passively challenges the point shot - fair criticism - but we're not talking about that. We're talking about Poolparty's goal, which to say was his fault is an absolute joke. Lindholm and Tanev BOTH made a mistake, and Lindholm even knew it. When you've got McDavid and someone rushing up at you, and two players both get beat (Tanev and Lindholm), you're in trouble.

To say it was because Bennett's rebound came out an unfortunate angle that allowed for a quick transition that the goal against was caused by him is ridiculous in this situation. You're just looking for reasons to blame him.

Bennett flat out hasn't been good this year - which, before Saturday, he shared that in common with the majority of Flames forwards. On this play though? That goal against is not caused by him in any real way (unlike the poor effort on the 1-1 goal).

[DeluxeMoustache]

The 1-1 goal was the one where Bieksa showed Valimaki failing to cover Khaira correctly

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I remember the highlight videos that were going around in the year before Sam was drafted-video after video of him doing everything himself. Driving wide around the D and crashing the net, toe drags, dekes, etc. Looked like a One man gang. Problem is, he’s still trying to do the same stuff in the NHL, and he hasn’t learned that he can’t get away with it anymore. I’m a huge Bennett fan, and I have advocated plenty of times in the past for more of him on a better line, but he’s got to use his linemates better-and like a poster said above-he has the IQ enough to do that.

I can't help but think this goes back to him being rushed into the NHL right from junior and not being developed longer. The things he lacks are the things they teach prospects in the AHL or things that the NHL team that drafts them gets them to work on in junior after being drafted. The expectations were probably unrealistic. The team traded development time for immediate dividends. Now he is just playing the only way he knows how.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Gaudreau was up ice with him as well. The trailing man for the Oilers wasn't even involved in the goal. It was a rapid play back up the ice with Poolparty and McDavid doing a quick give and go.

You're on a witch hunt at this stage. The 1-1 goal, he pretty passively challenges the point shot - fair criticism - but we're not talking about that. We're talking about Poolparty's goal, which to say was his fault is an absolute joke. Lindholm and Tanev BOTH made a mistake, and Lindholm even knew it. When you've got McDavid and someone rushing up at you, and two players both get beat (Tanev and Lindholm), you're in trouble.

To say it was because Bennett's rebound came out an unfortunate angle that allowed for a quick transition that the goal against was caused by him is ridiculous in this situation. You're just looking for reasons to blame him.

Bennett flat out hasn't been good this year - which, before Saturday, he shared that in common with the majority of Flames forwards. On this play though? That goal against is not caused by him in any real way.

So if I back off my language a hair, and instead of using a word like "fault" I make a claim like "Here's why we might have concerns about this guy's awareness and effectiveness at 5 on 5." we'd all agree. Yeah, the trailing man did not score that goal. But he was wide open, and easily could have. Did Bennett make an effort to get back and cover that dangerous situation? No. Is the goal his "fault"? No a bunch of other guys blew stuff too.

I'm honestly not witch-hunting here, as I said, I love the guy, I want him to blossom and explode and be a force out there, he can be. But what I see is penalties, poor execution, and frankly just trying SO hard to be awesome that he's gripping the stick a bit. I'm glad as hell he scored, and whether he's a good fit for Johnny and Monny I do not have any idea. I've wondered at his usage or lack of it, just as a I wonder at the current usage of guys like Lucic in critical situations.

But I really don't think the Flames are holding him back. I think the whole organization wants nothing but for him to learn to play a complete game and be smart and effective. He clearly sees himself as more than just that (and pressure's on a high pick to be more). The trouble is, having 5 great games a season isn't what the league is about.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The 1-1 goal was the one where Bieksa showed Valimaki failing to cover Khaira correctly

I thought there was a lot of fire-drill looking play in the Calgary end the whole night, a lot of times I found myself thinking "Is this a powerplay?" I thought it looked really scrambly a lot of times. The 5 on 5 defensive coverage was pretty sketchy at times. Reminded me of watching the Sedins skate circles around everyone.

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

Anyways back to Bennett trade rumours, I’ve got nothing

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I can't help but think this goes back to him being rushed into the NHL right from junior and not being developed longer. The things he lacks are the things they teach prospects in the AHL or things that the NHL team that drafts them gets them to work on in junior after being drafted. The expectations were probably unrealistic. The team traded development time for immediate dividends. Now he is just playing the only way he knows how.

A poster said earlier that Bennett reminded him of Gary Roberts, which is a good comparison, but the one guy that he reminds me of is Jamie Lundmark. Both players are roughly the same size, same position coming out of junior, both are extra truculent, both are physical, both are good skaters. Hell, both have remarkably similar stats in their draft year (each had 91pts-Benny in 57 games, Lundmark in 70; 118PIMS for Benny, 121 for Lundmark). One could scarcely tell them apart, if not for the name on the back of the jersey. Lundmark ended up playing the last 8 years of his career in Europe, and never stuck as an NHLer. Both players were one-man wrecking crews in junior that never seemed to be able to get used to using their linemates. Maybe Benny just never developed that skill. I still have faith in him, but he's getting older.....

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Gaudreau was up ice with him as well. The trailing man for the Oilers wasn't even involved in the goal. It was a rapid play back up the ice with Poolparty and McDavid doing a quick give and go.

You're on a witch hunt at this stage. The 1-1 goal, he pretty passively challenges the point shot - fair criticism - but we're not talking about that. We're talking about Poolparty's goal, which to say was his fault is an absolute joke. Lindholm and Tanev BOTH made a mistake, and Lindholm even knew it. When you've got McDavid and someone rushing up at you, and two players both get beat (Tanev and Lindholm), you're in trouble.

To say it was because Bennett's rebound came out an unfortunate angle that allowed for a quick transition that the goal against was caused by him is ridiculous in this situation. You're just looking for reasons to blame him.

Bennett flat out hasn't been good this year - which, before Saturday, he shared that in common with the majority of Flames forwards. On this play though? That goal against is not caused by him in any real way (unlike the poor effort on the 1-1 goal).

Highish backhands on the rush like that on are also one of the tougher shots for goalies to save, and it's been the go-to play of some damn elite players in that situation - guys like Crosby and Datsyuk.

Anyways, I was doing some digging.

Here was my question:

What is a realistic production expectation for any successful winger playing with Gaudreau and Monahan?

For sensibility sake, I omitted 2014-15 Jiri Hudler. He was the team's leading scorer that year and had an absolute Midas touch where he was deflecting every point shot and sniping every pass. I believe he led the NHL in even strength points, period, that season, even ahead of the Art Ross winner. Correct me if I am mistaken though. That would be unfair to anyone, even Lindholm.

The first thing I want to note, is that I'm looking at 5-on-5 production. All-situations production would only make sense if a forward were to be playing in all situations with those two.

So the three wingers that actually had success with this pair, we all know who they are:

Sept 2015- Feb 28 2016 Jiri Hudler (
24 pts in 689:30 (2.09 p/60)

Feb 07 2017 - March 22 2018 Micheal Ferland
42 pts in 1223:28 (2.06 p/60)

2018-20 Elias Lindholm
67 pts in 2052:46 (1.96 p/60)

It's not perfect, like we all know Lindholm scored a bunch of points playing on a line with Tkachuk and Mangiapane last year, and Hudler saw some time with Backlund and Bennett in 2016 too (including Bennett's 4 goal game), but i'm sure any winger playing with Johnny and Monny this season will also see some time apart from them.

In aggregate, the three successful third wheels for this forwarrd pairing have produced 133 5v5 pts in 3965:44 - or 2.01 pt/60. For rounding sake, let's just call that two points for every sixty minutes of 5v5 icetime.

Last night against Edmonton, Bennett logged 11:28 of 5v5 icetime, while Monahan logged 11:45. Let's assume Ward will be consistent with this ice time distribution for Bennett, or in other words that Monahan and Bennett will roughly log the same icetime so long as they are playing together. Monahan's season average of 12:13 isn't far off from that mark.

So, assuming Sam Bennett logs 12:00 minutes of 5v5 icetime per game for the rest of the season (45 more games) he should log 540 more minutes. So far he has 17:55 logged with them with 1 pt. By the end of the season, if he is to produce ~2.0 pts/60 with them, he would need roughly 17.5 more points.

So, if Sam Bennett can produce 17 or 18 5v5 pts in the next 45 games, then he would be right in line with Lindholm, Hudler, and Ferland.

Will he do it? (or at least pace for it before being traded?)

We will find out, I guess.

It'd be cool if someone could do a point production snake though.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Just accept that you were wrong.

The most common metaphor for tension is that it is lingering in the air, like a gas. In that case diffuse is by far the better word.

It is certainly also common to discuss tension like a potential bomb, and in that case defuse would in fact be better.

But seeing as how I was the original author here, my choice kind of rules the day

Um, no. You weren't talking about the tension, but about the situation. One does not diffuse a situation; the phrase would be meaningless.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

One does not diffuse a situation

There is a flatulence joke in here somewhere.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Yeah, generally defuse agrees with situation, quasi metaphorically

Situation is combustible. You remove the fuse. No kablammo

[Lanny_McDonald]

Jay's right about the use of the terms. In an effort to defuse the Bennett discussion I've not commented on it the past two days after diffusing my thoughts on him to a great extent, much of which is in alignment with the general feeling in the media.

There was a shift in the Oilers game during the second period which perfectly outlined the problems with Bennett and his game. The puck had gone down the right side and Bennett was first on it, getting to it just before Gaudreau. He had it just inside the blueline and Gaudreau was three or four strides behind him. Both Oilers defensemen had come over to the half of the ice where the puck was. Monahan had snuck into the soft spot in the coverage and was all alone on the left side for an easy scoring opportunity. Sam had a decision to make as the puck carrier. Instead of making the drop pass to Gaudreau who would then have the wide open play to Monahan he instead elected to try and beat the defender head on by himself, which resulted in a quick turnover.

The smart play was the drop pass, even if Monahan was not in position wide open where the off side defender had abandoned his position. By making the drop pass the puck and continuing his push forward, Bennett then has opportunity to force the defender into a decision; either covering Bennett as he goes to open ice or attacking the puck and putting himself further out of position. This is where Sam is lost. This is understanding the game, recognizing opportunity, and using your team mates to generate offense. Instead of using his team mate he tried to go alone and make a power move on his backhand, which quickly failed.

It was frustrating to watch because you could see the play developing. You could feel the play developing. This was a classic Monahan-Gaudreau scoring play developing. But Bennett didn't see, he didn't feel it, and he didn't think it. He did what he always does and tries to beat everyone himself, which is not the type of guy that is going to work with Monahan and Gaudreau. Those two need a guy that can retrieve pucks, move it to the other two, and create open ice. This play was a microcosm of Bennett's weaknesses as a player and a real point of frustration.

Another play that was a little frustrating to watch develop that turned into something good was actually Bennett's goal. If you watch that play develop the players are all out of the positions you hope for them to be in. Monahan ended up in the RW corner to recover the puck. Gaudreau ended up behind the net recovering the puck, and Bennett was the trailer because of a missed puck over on the left wing boards just inside the blueline. The puck ended up back at the right point which was dumped to the right corner where Monahan was. The puck hopped past him but got to Gaudreau which drew the defender to him, leaving the front of the net open. Bennett actually did what Bennett does best and crashed the net. Gaudreau felt the defenders closing in and made a slick blind pass through the end of the crease off the post and Bennett banged in the gimme. It all worked out in the end, but everyone was out of their expected positions and roles, which was another red flag moment for the combination. While this was successful, like when a quarterback makes a completion where the ball ends up in the same space as two receivers because of route mix up, it is still something that will be discussed in film sessions as a breakdown moment. Both guys you hope to generate offense and have the greatest finishing ability were in a puck retrieval positions, and the guy you plan to be your retrieval guy is the one in the danger zone. It all worked out, but it was all bass ackward, which likely won't make the coaches happy. Just a couple observations on two plays that really stood out for how they developed.

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

Bennett is no Gary Roberts!!! like not even close! I don’t ever recall a game where I didn’t notice Roberts having an impact. Bennett!? Well he’s gone weeks without me noticing him in a game. Did Roberts take some bad penalties early in in his career? Sure but Roberts never took a shift off regular or post season. He also had way more offensive hockey IQ then Bennett has ever shown. Anyways I’m hoping Tre can pull off some more wizardry on this trade. Go Flames Go!

[rooster]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I remember the highlight videos that were going around in the year before Sam was drafted-video after video of him doing everything himself. Driving wide around the D and crashing the net, toe drags, dekes, etc. Looked like a One man gang. Problem is, he’s still trying to do the same stuff in the NHL, and he hasn’t learned that he can’t get away with it anymore. I’m a huge Bennett fan, and I have advocated plenty of times in the past for more of him on a better line, but he’s got to use his linemates better-and like a poster said above-he has the IQ enough to do that.

Maybe the real problem is with the IQ of the guys that are supposed to know this and picked him anyway!

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Gaudreau is a Ninja

Anyways back to Bennett trade rumours, I’ve got nothing

With Ryan out until March 1st at the earliest, I doubt they are trading Bennett right now, unless it’s within the division.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by rooster

Maybe the real problem is with the IQ of the guys that are supposed to know this and picked him anyway!

No way. Based on everything known about him at the time, Bennett was a top-four draft pick. It is not an exact science; every single year there are a few players who just don't figure out how to translate their game to the NHL, and there is no way of foreseeing this.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Highish backhands on the rush like that on are also one of the tougher shots for goalies to save, and it's been the go-to play of some damn elite players in that situation - guys like Crosby and Datsyuk.

Anyways, I was doing some digging.

Here was my question:

What is a realistic production expectation for any successful winger playing with Gaudreau and Monahan?

For sensibility sake, I omitted 2014-15 Jiri Hudler. He was the team's leading scorer that year and had an absolute Midas touch where he was deflecting every point shot and sniping every pass. I believe he led the NHL in even strength points, period, that season, even ahead of the Art Ross winner. Correct me if I am mistaken though. That would be unfair to anyone, even Lindholm.

The first thing I want to note, is that I'm looking at 5-on-5 production. All-situations production would only make sense if a forward were to be playing in all situations with those two.

So the three wingers that actually had success with this pair, we all know who they are:

Sept 2015- Feb 28 2016 Jiri Hudler (
24 pts in 689:30 (2.09 p/60)

Feb 07 2017 - March 22 2018 Micheal Ferland
42 pts in 1223:28 (2.06 p/60)

2018-20 Elias Lindholm
67 pts in 2052:46 (1.96 p/60)

It's not perfect, like we all know Lindholm scored a bunch of points playing on a line with Tkachuk and Mangiapane last year, and Hudler saw some time with Backlund and Bennett in 2016 too (including Bennett's 4 goal game), but i'm sure any winger playing with Johnny and Monny this season will also see some time apart from them.

In aggregate, the three successful third wheels for this forwarrd pairing have produced 133 5v5 pts in 3965:44 - or 2.01 pt/60. For rounding sake, let's just call that two points for every sixty minutes of 5v5 icetime.

Last night against Edmonton, Bennett logged 11:28 of 5v5 icetime, while Monahan logged 11:45. Let's assume Ward will be consistent with this ice time distribution for Bennett, or in other words that Monahan and Bennett will roughly log the same icetime so long as they are playing together. Monahan's season average of 12:13 isn't far off from that mark.

So, assuming Sam Bennett logs 12:00 minutes of 5v5 icetime per game for the rest of the season (45 more games) he should log 540 more minutes. So far he has 17:55 logged with them with 1 pt. By the end of the season, if he is to produce ~2.0 pts/60 with them, he would need roughly 17.5 more points.

So, if Sam Bennett can produce 17 or 18 5v5 pts in the next 45 games, then he would be right in line with Lindholm, Hudler, and Ferland.

Will he do it? (or at least pace for it before being traded?)

We will find out, I guess.

It'd be cool if someone could do a point production snake though.

Interesting. Just for context, what are Monahan and Gaudreau's /60 numbers for those years? Were they also consistent with those linemates? For giggles, what was Hudler at in his outlier year?