[PGT] Flames lose 4-1 to Winnipeg; lose Ryan to injury

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

If Gallant, Boudreau, and Sutter have all just been sitting around for a year doing nothing, how much money would they really expect?
They don't really have a ton of leverage.

Sutter would walk in. Take one look around the room at the lack of heart and turn and leave.

Leivo, Nordstrom, Ryan and Simon would be on the first buses out of town

[Igottago]

I am convinced a guy like Sutter would come in and take a group like this to at least the conference finals. Its a pipe dream though, because Ward isn't going anywhere and if he is Treliving doesn't hire experienced guys.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I read this stuff sometimes. Hoping to send this out to universe haha

How does it help…to make troubles heavier by bemoaning them?”- Seneca

Don’t explain your philosophy. Embody it. Epictetus

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I see another pretty obvious conversation to have...

The GM has, as of when the season started, built the team. The coach has to figure out how to get the most out of what he has been given.

You have a top three lines that have worked very recently for sustained periods of time

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Lucic - Bennett - Dube


But no! We are smarter than that!

Let’s bring the 3 bottom line / bubble players into the mix and randomize everything!

It is really absurd. A short 56 game season isn’t the time to experiment with everything. 10 games in, things should be settled, not less stable than ever

God damn smartest guys in the room

Yea that’s a solid point indeed.

I wouldn’t be against going back to those lines.

I agree with you I don’t like experimenting so much with Simon and Leivo.

You can usually tell pretty quickly if it will work out when putting new guys together.

We should be looking for natural chemistry not try and force the issue and manufacture it.

[browna]

Peters got this core roster, but lesser overall talented roster, to be 2nd in the league after 82 games. That was through preaching a style, implementing it, demanding it to be executed correctly, and figuring how to motivate and get the best out of players when it mattered. And it all came together and worked.

Trelving knew that a taskmaster like Peters was what was required after the super soft GG experiment, where he got trampled over by the dressing room.

Why then 2 years later Treliving let the inmates convince him to keep Ward, who is a slightly more seasoned NHL coach then GG, but same softie, is beyond me.
Because he made Lucic almost quit?

And then to extend him, especially after that Game 6 debacle and flat out lying about his goalie disaster.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I am convinced a guy like Sutter would come in and take a group like this to at least the conference finals. Its a pipe dream though, because Ward isn't going anywhere and if he is Treliving doesn't hire experienced guys.

I agree actually because he would not put up with laziness.

Which this team is.

The easy road for fans these days is saying “well all teams are lazy in stretches” or “it’s not like they don’t care, they are trying but blame x”

No. They are lazy. Watch the players and how they play the game. Do they hustle. Do they finish checks. Are they moving quickly and hard and finishing plays.

Why are our expectations for work ethic so low that 30-40 mins is good enough? Because it’s been years of this and we have Stockholm syndrome. Do other teams play the literal entire season giving 110% effort all the time? No. Do they work harder than the Flames? I fataing guarantee it and I have no doubts whatsoever. Being mentally weak is giving up- it’s being lazy.

[Harry Lime]

I was getting mad watching the game because Tkachuk was constantly standing and waiting for the puck to come to him. Such a simple thing to take a step and such an obvious thing when you see it not happening. Easy to coach out of someone, especially at this high level.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

There was literally a major trade this past week involving core players.

The last person who should be in charge of major changes to this team is Brad Treliving though.

[Mr.Coffee]

Moving on, why don’t the players care enough?

What is not good enough about being in the NHL in a hockey mad Canadian city being a pseudo celebrity for playing a game and making you inter-generationally wealthy?

How can you not put in a solid 60 minutes effort and care when that is what’s on the table? Like what more do you need or want or think you’re entitled to, to try hard? What am I missing?

[Calgary4LIfe]

It is my belief that there are certain coaches that coach the game with an eye on the analytics. They want a possession type of game at all costs. It sounds good, but not every group can play that type of game. Babcock is the 'king' of this philosophy, but I argue he has always been a fairly mediocre coach who lucked his way onto the top team.


Also, don't bring up the fact that he got picked to coach Team Canada - know who was second in the running to coach? Brent Sutter when he joined the Flames. Yes, he was widely thought of as the 2nd best coach in Canada.


Give me a coach any day like Bob Johnson, Darryl Sutter and Bob Hartley. All three of these coaches have created systems according to the on-ice personnel, and all had exhaustive track records of making in-game decisions. I find it funny how Hartley in particular gets labelled as a terrible coach, when he was the only coach that actually won a playoff series. Won a cup too. He also won in every single damn league he has ever coached in. I get why he was fired - yes, he was way too harsh and difficult with the players personally, and I don't begrudge the Flames for moving on.


However, citing systems issues and having to be 'lucky' - how about people go and look at the rosters that Hartley was given - they HAD to be pretty damn lucky to win any games, but Hartley actually got that team to be a playoff team.


Give me a coach like that. Bring back Darryl (first choice for me), and if not, any other coach with a track record that can figure out a system to maximize this team's strengths and shore up the weaknesses.


If that doesn't work, blow it all up.


This is just not working IMO. I am not an anti-stats guy. My argument is that there are teams that are built to win playing the Babcock type of possession hockey. The Flames aren't built that way. Sure, you can definitely have elements there - I am not advocating that the Flames throw everything out when it comes to possession hockey and instead become a shot-blocking (though they kind of are right now!!) and stretch-pass hail mary team. Just sit down - with the players if need be - and figure out some of these answers.


I remember the Brent Sutter hockey. "Everything against the wall". Pucks could only exit along the boards (even when teams figured this out and started blocking the boards). Offence was to be generated through the cycle only. Team was the 2nd oldest and 2nd or 3rd smallest team... couldn't win a board battle outside of Iginal and Regehr to save their lives. That team would always go on a run and excite us, and they did it by playing off the rush and doing what they could do given their make-up. Remember when Brent first took over the team? Flames were winning, but Brent would come out and say how this team isn't playing in the system, and things needed to change, etc. Well, when they did play the system, they lost.


This team isn't built for puck possession. This team can't play along the boards - even Lucic somehow keeps losing his balance and falling over along the boards. This team HAS to play off the rush and needs to come up with way more set plays. Not abandon possession altogether, but figure out something different.


I think this team has to play like the Sedin-era of the Canucks (minus the vomit-inducing dives). Tonnes of set plays, a varied zone break-out structure, and different methods for different lines.



Sedins became great on the cycle. Not all their players were, however. Their zone entries were ahead of their time - first team I saw use the drop-pass on the PP. First time I saw a team regularly use a set play where defencemen just shot the puck from his end into the other end of the rink, but one or two players would already be hustling to beat out the icing. They made use of a lot of intelligent plays (and now let me wash my mouth out with soap for the next hour).


I don't see that with the Flames. All I see is slow, prodding, 5on5 possession hockey where the opposing team is set and now you have to either make a series of passes to defeat the zone trap, have Gaudreau, Backlund or Lindholm attempt to carry the puck into the zone and dangle themselves into a corner, or just dump it in and try to gain possession back.


Nesterov is a guy that I see bucking that trend. I notice him the most trying to get the puck up through the middle past the opposing forwards who are curling back to get set to a Flames forward to beat them back. I notice him making a few really nice plays to beat out the forecheck and get the puck moving the other way quicker.


I also really worry about the Playoffs. This team is well known for failing in the postseason now. So what do they do? They grabbed a really good goalie - that's awesome (no, that is seriously awesome, not sarcastic awesome). They also grabbed an inexperienced defensive defencemen (I had my reservations, but it is looking awesome now too). But they let go their best performer in the playoffs since the Hartley era in Brodie. Now they are letting their 'tough and incredibly overachieving sparkplug' in Bennett too. Say what you will about Bennett, but he does help this team win in the playoffs, and so did Brodie. I worry that this team is just going to be easier to play against.


This is a long rant. I am surprised that I have continued to dislike Ward. During Peters' first year, I heard rumours that there were teams zeroing-in on Ward as a possible new head coach. I was actually worried that they would pry him away, and wondered if he was the real 'brains' behind the bench. I don't worry about that any longer.


Putting Nordstrom out with Gaudreau and Monahan. Say what you will about Jankowski (he did look awful last year), but they kid scored 17 and 14 goals in a season for a total of 31 goals. 31 goals is the same number that Nordstrom scored over 8 seasons.. eight! Somehow Nordstrom was a possibility of working out on that top line, but Jankowski wasn't? Bennett never got a long look. Ward thought moving the team's best defensive center for a LONG look as the winger there was a good idea? Don't get me started on who he throws out at certain times in the game.


I am not saying Jankowski was going to be the messiah - I wish him well and wish he worked out better, but you would think that someone who did a really good job of scoring in a bottom 6 role without the benefit of PP time, and who scored what 6(?) 8(?) SHG in a season could have at least entered the revolving door of RW'ers on that line for a guest appearance, especially when it seems more head scratching choices are being made.


I sound angry, but I am more bewildered than anything. Come Saturday, I know I will just cheer for this team no matter what happens again. Every loss hurts a bit because it will always come as a surprise to me, because I always think this team is going to win every game. Don't let the rant above fool you - I still think this team has what it takes to win the cup.


I do, however, subscribe to the theory that "I don't know if this core is good enough to win or not, because we haven't answered the question of if this coach is good enough for the last few coaching hires". Before it comes to 'blowing it all up', I would like one more season with a competent and proven coach. I don't know who that may be (I don't think Boudreau or Gallant fit that definition - the others I liked are employed, with the only notable exception being Darryl Sutter - well, Hartley too, but even I don't wish that to happen).


I would really love to just get that one question answered during the lifetime of this core. I got my answer in 2004 with the "Iginal Era" (yes, that puck was in!). I thought this rebuild was going extremely well with the "Hartley Rebuild Years", and then everything just fell off a cliff, with a small but very bright season of being 2nd overall in the NHL, but only to get my heart ripped out with that 1st round loss to the 8th seed.


At the end of the day, this is what it means to be a hardcore fan of one team in every sport. You are likely to be upset many more years than not, and it should be expected. This team is very talented, and they can be very entertaining, but just something isn't clicking, and I believe it is the system being employed. Time will tell I guess.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Give me a coach like that. Bring back Darryl (first choice for me), and if not, any other coach with a track record that can figure out a system to maximize this team's strengths and shore up the weaknesses..

This! First choice for me as well.

[topfiverecords]

The forward group needs a major rehab before this team will do anything. One line of Mangiapane - Lindholm - Dube; Tkachuk. Everyone else needs to be upgraded. Unfortunately it’ll take years and by that point we’ll need to remake the D and get a new goalie.

[Dion]

We don't have the offensive guns to compete in this division. No elite center or winger puts us at a disadvantage.

[868904]

Gaudreau
Mangiapane
Dube
Ryan
Simon

42% of the forwards are small and weak. Some of them compete hard but at the end of the day, it don't matter how big your heart is, you aren't overpowering a bigger equally skilled player.

This team has been lacking "size and skill" for years. Along with the coaching decision, this has been Tre's biggest weakness. He loves his small speedy forwards. They might be fine against small or average size teams, but whenever they come up against teams with big and skilled players, they can never win.

They got lucky with Winnipeg last year cause they lost two of their biggest and skilled forwards. Then they ran into another big team in Dallas. This year, they've been outplayed by the equally skilled but bigger Canadiens and the more skilled and generally bigger Leafs and the more skilled and bigger Jets.

Keep Gaudreau, Dube and Mangiapane, upgrade the size and skill on Ryan and Simon. Sure the latter two are decent players, but you have too many small players.

It's pretty easy to disrupt the Flames momentum, teams just get harder and more physical with them, that's the secret to beating the Flames.

If Ryan is out, please don't bring in another smurf in Phillips. I like the kid, but this team is just too small. Bring in Ruzicka.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I want to say I care but this team has been a psychological vampire on me for years and I think they have sucked me dry.

Ditto.

I've been beat down by hope so many times that whenever I see them start to phone it in out there I immediately go to my other distractions or work. If I have to watch through it, I just zone out to other stuff. I've seen the song and dance so many times that its like watching the sun rise and set. I just remind myself to look at the games individually, and enjoy the ones that go well when they do. There will always be another win eventually.

I rooted for us to get Sutter after Peters. I knew it was a fools hope, but I wanted it so bad. When we "settled" for our PP coach with no HC experience I guess I knew what we probably had signed up for. This team requires a really good puppet master and a ###-hole that knows the game inside out. This group simply will not motivate itself when it needs to, for the kind of longevity it takes to really successful.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by 868904

Gaudreau
Mangiapane
Dube
Ryan
Simon

42% of the forwards are small and weak. Some of them compete hard but at the end of the day, it don't matter how big your heart is, you aren't overpowering a bigger equally skilled player.


This team has been lacking "size and skill" for years. Along with the coaching decision, this has been Tre's biggest weakness. He loves his small speedy forwards. They might be fine against small or average size teams, but whenever they come up against teams with big and skilled players, they can never win.

...

Point
Kucherov
Johnson
Gourde
Coleman

"never win"

I don't believe size is the issue you are making it out to be considering the defending champs are hardly the biggest team.

I hope we bring in guys like Phillips and Zavgorodny.

[NewFan]

How come these players became so slow. Before Lindholm was so fast, now he is above awerage at best. Johnny us same. Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund, Lucic, Leivo are all very slow. After Hartley no coach is demanding these guys individual skills. Can't shoot, can't skate can't puck handle, but nobody cares.

[868904]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Sutter would walk in. Take one look around the room at the lack of heart and turn and leave.

Leivo, Nordstrom, Ryan and Simon would be on the first buses out of town

I really don't understand the hate for Nordstrom. He is the least of the Flames problems right now.

He gets paid like minimum, bust his ass out there, lays his body on the line. The guy is all heart.

What do people expect from him?

I think Nordstrom would be a Sutter favourite.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I am convinced a guy like Sutter would come in and take a group like this to at least the conference finals. Its a pipe dream though, because Ward isn't going anywhere and if he is Treliving doesn't hire experienced guys.

Same.

Kills me that BT doesn't appear to believe that a veteran coach with a track record of success would pay dividends.

As long as we're that place where you can get your first crack at an NHL HC gig, we're just not going to go very far.

It's a surefire way to piss your "window" away for no reason.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by 868904

I really don't understand the hate for Nordstrom. He is the least of the Flames problems right now.

He gets paid like minimum, bust his ass out there, lays his body on the line. The guy is all heart.

What do people expect from him?

I think Nordstrom would be a Sutter favourite.

Yeah, you don’t run him out of town

4th line + Pk? Yes
Top line? No

It’s really pretty simple. Slot appropriately