[Game Takes] Habs 4 Flames 2

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I have never been big on Kylington but I can say without a doubt that he's never played as poor as Valimaki has to open this season. I get that the Flames invested a 1st in Valimaki and they are going to give him every opportunity but they invested a 2nd in Kylington. Time to swap these guys and let the better player stay in the lineup. Not saying Valimaki is a bust but this is probably the last kick at the can for this core of players and maybe the GM as well and games shouldn't be wasted on development of a defenseman that may simply not be ready.

That just isn't true.

Valimaki had some bad bounces and reads in the last two games, made some mistakes, but Kylington has consistently been a below water player no matter who he's played with.

We don't have to bend over backwards to give Valimaki every opportunity, and I don't mind a change to give Kylington a look, but thinking he's never played poorer than Valimaki (who honestly has played well in the first four games) isn't accurate.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He's directly resulting in goals against (either via penalty, mistakes, or deflecting multiple pucks in his own net) at a time when the team is in a fragile state. Yes he's currently part of the problem.

Sure, but I mean who isn't part of the problem the last few games?

for me it doesn't make sense to pick on a young player because he's in a stretch of mostly bad luck. I'm just not seeing him play poorly so I don't see why taking him out will change anything. Is Nesterov going to stop giving up odd man rushes if Valimaki is out of the lineup?

and if the team is in that fragile of a state we're focusing on the wrong issue.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Again he's directly resulting in goals against. His issues are measurable on the scoreboard. The team will continue to struggle as long as he's playing like this. He either needs to play better or sit.

Well, if we sit everyone who is directly resulting in goals against, we won't be able to ice a team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, if we sit everyone who is directly resulting in goals against, we won't be able to ice a team.

Hanifin and Tanev get to play the whole game

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That just isn't true.

Valimaki had some bad bounces and reads in the last two games, made some mistakes, but Kylington has consistently been a below water player no matter who he's played with.

We don't have to bend over backwards to give Valimaki every opportunity, and I don't mind a change to give Kylington a look, but thinking he's never played poorer than Valimaki (who honestly has played well in the first four games) isn't accurate.

You are bringing in advanced stats to the equation and IMO we are still in the infancy of understanding how and when they matter. I've seen some bad play from Kylington but a lot of the time he's largely unnoticeable and IMO that's not a bad thing for a defenseman. Valimaki has not passed the eye test at all this season. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to put a struggling young player in the pressbox for a game or two as nobody can deny that he's struggled.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are bringing in advanced stats to the equation and IMO we are still in the infancy of understanding how and when they matter. I've seen some bad play from Kylington but a lot of the time he's largely unnoticeable and IMO that's not a bad thing for a defenseman. Valimaki has not passed the eye test at all this season. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to put a struggling young player in the pressbox for a game or two as nobody can deny that he's struggled.

I don't think anyone would disagree with giving Valamaki a game or two to sit, but let's also not exaggerate what has occurred. He was solid in his first few games. He has been much worse in his last two. This has NOT been a complete disaster from the drop of the puck on opening night.

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[Calgary4LIfe]

The question really is: "Should the Flames keep playing Valimaki and let him work through his recent issues, or is he better off being scratched for a few games as you don't want him to feel rattled?" I don't think there is a right answer for this one, at least not an obvious one. Some players just need to play through their yips, and some players need to be sat for a while and just let that pressure off.


As for Kylington, he will get his chance as injuries happen. Hopefully he will play the right side when he is inserted, just to figure out if he is better on that side. Unless the Flames want to rotate their D in and out of the lineup over this condensed schedule, I think he will be an injury replacement (barring a 'yips' replacement if Valimaki continues his struggles and is looking more and more rattled - Flames are not the Oilers where they ruin their prospects by just throwing them to the wolves after all). I hope he runs with the chance that he ends up getting this season.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are bringing in advanced stats to the equation and IMO we are still in the infancy of understanding how and when they matter. I've seen some bad play from Kylington but a lot of the time he's largely unnoticeable and IMO that's not a bad thing for a defenseman. Valimaki has not passed the eye test at all this season. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to put a struggling young player in the pressbox for a game or two as nobody can deny that he's struggled.

Honestly the numbers for both players over the last three years are somewhat similar ... Valimaki better in shot attempt splits, and xGF ... but xGA they're pretty close.

But between the two players I see Valimaki pushing his play and with that making some mistakes that come with growth. With Kylington my biggest concern is that he abandons his biggest asset (skating) when he gets the puck. He just shuts down.

I worry about his process ability.

[sketchyt]

Maybe someone more well-versed in the X's and O's can comment better, but I'm noticing that after the Vancouver games the defence do not activate (often) in the offensive zone or on the rush.

It's driving me nuts. We have a good and smart group of 200 ft. D and they hang back while there's one forechecker in deep while the D waltz into the zone.

Meanwhile, Toronto and Montreal have all five players entering the zone like a pack of wild spider monkeys jacked up on Mountain Dew. I don't understand.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames will likely do a lot better when they get to play Ottawa.

I should hope they will do better against the team that is bottom in the division, has 1 win, and is currently on a 5 game losing streak.


They don't play OTT until the third week of Feb. By then the Flames could easily be well outside of a playoff spot.


They need to be better against MTL and WPG.

[Teroy]

Same old, same old. This team doesn't have a leader. This team doesn't have a compete bone in it's structure. As long as we rely on Gaudreau to be our great hope we're doomed. He should have been moved in the off season. I want the attitude of a team like we had in the days of Lanny and Pepper; tough, determined and in your face. I'm tired of reading "it's early, they haven't settled in yet etc". We've been hearing that for a number of year now. And no, I don't put this on Ward. These guys get big bucks to play a kids game. It's time they stepped up and earned their huge salaries. When they hit the ice they should be hungry and ready to go full speed. I've been on the band wagon since day one but it's getting harder and harder to hold on. This isn't the team to get it done.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I should hope they will do better against the team that is bottom in the division, has 1 win, and is currently on a 5 game losing streak.


They don't play OTT until the third week of Feb. By then the Flames could easily be well outside of a playoff spot.


They need to be better against MTL and WPG.

By then they could easily be leading the Division.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Honestly the numbers for both players over the last three years are somewhat similar ... Valimaki better in shot attempt splits, and xGF ... but xGA they're pretty close.

But between the two players I see Valimaki pushing his play and with that making some mistakes that come with growth. With Kylington my biggest concern is that he abandons his biggest asset (skating) when he gets the puck. He just shuts down.

I worry about his process ability.

So it's your eye test vs mine. I have noticed he's pretty active in the transition game which is great but he's been a bit of a mess in his own end which is not so good. I'm different than a lot of fans in that I don't get attached to any player and care only about the team so I'm not a fan of picking and choosing what players get the kid gloves. I want Valimaki to succeed because that is the best for the team but if he struggles I want him treated like any bottom pairing defenseman and that's spending some time in the pressbox when warranted. For a few years now we have kind of anointed this guy as a future top pairing defenseman before he's really done anything. He's struggled since the opening puck drop of the season and maybe everyone needs to pump the brakes on expectations here as it's possible that maybe he's not as ready to play as we thought. This is not proclaiming he's a bust or the sky is falling as all I care about is the team's record over the 56 games and performances like the last few he's had are hurting the cause and it may be time to have him sit for a game or two.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So it's your eye test vs mine. I have noticed he's pretty active in the transition game which is great but he's been a bit of a mess in his own end which is not so good. I'm different than a lot of fans in that I don't get attached to any player and care only about the team so I'm not a fan of picking and choosing what players get the kid gloves. I want Valimaki to succeed because that is the best for the team but if he struggles I want him treated like any bottom pairing defenseman and that's spending some time in the pressbox when warranted. For a few years now we have kind of anointed this guy as a future top pairing defenseman before he's really done anything. He's struggled since the opening puck drop of the season and maybe everyone needs to pump the brakes on expectations here as it's possible that maybe he's not as ready to play as we thought. This is not proclaiming he's a bust or the sky is falling as all I care about is the team's record over the 56 games and performances like the last few he's had are hurting the cause and it may be time to have him sit for a game or two.

Right ... but the bolded part isn't true.

His game log shows xGF% night of 50.6%, 61.4%, 70.4% and 71.0% to start the season. The third pairing was flying and playing like an elite pair in sheltered minutes.

Then the last two games he's gone to 49.1% and then last night, the rough one ... 25.6% which was a face plant.

So no .. he hasn't struggled from the start of the season, in fact quite the opposite (stats and eye test).

You could certainly take him out if you think a pause would help, but it's not a guy not ready from the start of the season at all.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Valimaki is easily one of our top 5 dmen..

And if you think that was a penalty last night you’re just as blind as the refs.

Being in the top five sounds less impressive when you consider there’s only six in the group.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Being in the top five sounds less impressive when you consider there’s only six in the group.

Is it?

The 5 guy isn't battling with the 7 guy to play. It's a huge distinction.

Ask guy 6 and 7!