Blow it up!

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

I just don't buy that.

Look at a team like Vegas for example.. Bottom six consists of Kolesar (who?), Carrier, Reaves, Roy, and Nosek.. They have five points combined on the season, and are 5-1-1.

Calgary has the pieces to compete and win on any given night. It comes down to coaching, commitment, and a certain mentality to execute the small details.

In addition to that it's been six games. Six. The five game layoff came at probably the worst possible time as well.

Fundamentally I think their is an issue with the top end players on this roster. They need to lead the charge on a game to game basis and set the tone for the bottom six. They are extremely inconsistent in their efforts and it has a trickle down effect on the bottom half of the roster.

You can still contribute and not put up points. I haven't watched a VGK game this year, so I can't speak for the players listed, but laying the body, mixing it up , being responsible defensively all contribute to winning. What consistent positive contribution have Bennett, Lucic, Leino, Simon Nordstrom, and Backlund made thus far?

IMHO the bolded is completely ridiculous. Worst possible time compared to what? Look at Dallas, two weeks behind and right into 4 straight wins.

[flambers]

My concern with the Flames, I am not a fan of the make up of the forwards.

They lack elite forwards, some nights the forwards are lacking and they have a tendency to play a soft game and not get involved.

Flames should have addressed this last off-season,

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You can still contribute and not put up points. I haven't watched a VGK game this year, so I can't speak for the players listed, but laying the body, mixing it up , being responsible defensively all contribute to winning. What consistent positive contribution have Bennett, Lucic, Leino, Simon Nordstrom, and Backlund made thus far?

IMHO the bolded is completely ridiculous. Worst possible time compared to what? Look at Dallas, two weeks behind and right into 4 straight wins.

This speaks to the mental softness of the team.
It seems to me, and this may be perception or reality, is that this team has shown they struggle in
- Games after a long lay off
- Games when they return home from a long road trip
- Big games (playoff games, Iggy's number going up, etc)

They lack mental strength. They are easy to get off their game. We see that in game too. Poor starts. Good starts but if something bounces the wrong way - it throws them off.

To me this has been proven time and time again with this group of players.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This speaks to the mental softness of the team.
It seems to me, and this may be perception or reality, is that this team has shown they struggle in
- Games after a long lay off
- Games when they return home from a long road trip
- Big games (playoff games, Iggy's number going up, etc)

They lack mental strength. They are easy to get off their game. We see that in game too. Poor starts. Good starts but if something bounces the wrong way - it throws them off.

To me this has been proven time and time again with this group of players.

Tanev and Markstrom should help this but we need a big shakeup to the forward core.

I also wish we would take a page out of old Ducks teams and embrace being a pest to play against. Bring in some more pests to go with Tkachuk.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You can still contribute and not put up points. I haven't watched a VGK game this year, so I can't speak for the players listed, but laying the body, mixing it up , being responsible defensively all contribute to winning. What consistent positive contribution have Bennett, Lucic, Leino, Simon Nordstrom, and Backlund made thus far?

IMHO the bolded is completely ridiculous. Worst possible time compared to what? Look at Dallas, two weeks behind and right into 4 straight wins.

I agree you can still contribute without providing offense. Each player you listed on the Flames has shown the ability to do so previously, six games shouldn't completely toss that out. Backlund always has ups and downs in a season. When he get's going, so will the bottom six. No bottom six is consistently productive in every area of the game throughout the year.

Dallas has beat up on Detroit and Nashville. They are also a team that made it to the finals last season. Calgary has played arguably the two best teams in the division since the break, and were competitive and unlucky to come out without points in both leafs games. To get out of the get as well as we did and then to have to sit while other teams got into game action was a tough break in my opinion. One poor game with your back up in net against a very well built team in Montreal is not enough for me to completely write this team off.

Fair points are being made in this thread, and starting slow in such a shortened season is clearly a troubling sign, but let's give this team another handful of games. If this team was 3-2-1 instead of 2-3-1 the views around here would be completely different.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You can still contribute and not put up points. I haven't watched a VGK game this year, so I can't speak for the players listed, but laying the body, mixing it up , being responsible defensively all contribute to winning. What consistent positive contribution have Bennett, Lucic, Leino, Simon Nordstrom, and Backlund made thus far?

IMHO the bolded is completely ridiculous. Worst possible time compared to what? Look at Dallas, two weeks behind and right into 4 straight wins.

You could make a caee the last 3 losses that Valimaki getting lit up is the single biggest reason for our 3 game losing streak. Young kid we are all excited about struggling early on. I think people need to relax a bit. Blowing it up is an off season thing maybe trade deadline. We have had a tough schedule so far too

I'm all for some adjustments though at some point. Still think Bennett is the guy to move on from. Imo Bennett traded and Ryan and rittich off the books next year is a huge plus for this team.

If it gets real bad maybe gio and backlund need to go. With tanev now I feel better about moving gio.

[Derek Sutton]

To add to what I posted above, look at Vancouver and Edmonton, much the same outside of the "top forwards". A bunch of veterans who contribute nothing. For every Lucic theres a James Neal and a Brandon Sutter. For every Bennett theres a Rousel and Chiasson. For every Simon theres as a Nygaard and Virtanen, the list goes on. Non contributors on the bottom six is no longer in the recipe for success. All three teams have a similar forward mix and all are getting the same results thus far.

[Nelson]

I would like to see the Flames stay the course. I think they are playing well and eventually the results will start to show it.

Per NaturalStatTrick, they currently have:
-54.68% shot attempt for percentage,
-54.78% unblocked shot attempt for percentage,
-50.60% shot for percentage
-47.06 goal for percentage
-54.73% expected goal for percentage
-56.41% scoring chance for percentage and
-51.16% high danger scoring chance for percentage.

For this reason, I am confident that if the Flames stick with the lineup they have been playing, their results will improve.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by zamler

When this team has a legit coach, which is almost never, we excel.

This is true as the organization has only ever flourished when they had top shelf head coaches. When you have a coach with a proven record of winning you know in time he's going to right the ship and start pressing the right buttons. Ward's claim to fame is still that lone winning streak after initially getting the interim job. Since then it's been close to a .500 record. It's fair to say that he's probably part of the problem right now.

[Inglewood Jack]

if you don't have truly elite skaters, the team can still be better than the sum of its parts with an elite coach (see Trotz). yes there's that argument that a rather large coaching rotation hasn't made a difference with this core, but my argument continues to be we haven't yet tried that elite coach with a proven NHL pedigree.

Hartley - most recent success in 2001 prior to Flames, hasn't been in NHL since

Gully - first HC gig, not a HC now

Peters - mediocre results with Carolina, 50 games of awesome, out of NHL

Ward - first HC gig

which of the above screams "see! even this Scotty Bowman-like leader couldn't get them to play consistently!". it's the one final variable that in my opinion hasn't been tried yet. if a Boudreau or Gallant came in and it was still same old Flames, then I would definitely throw in the towel on this group and hit the detonator.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Tanev and Markstrom should help this but we need a big shakeup to the forward core.

I also wish we would take a page out of old Ducks teams and embrace being a pest to play against. Bring in some more pests to go with Tkachuk.

Do Tkachuk's pest behaviors actually help this team though?
It sure seems to motivate the opponents.
But does it make him and his teammates better?
I'm not so sure.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Do Tkachuk's pest behaviors actually help this team though?
It sure seems to motivate the opponents.
But does it make him and his teammates better?
I'm not so sure.

I agree the team under performs after one of his controversies, but that is on this current team.

If we bring in some more pests and try to make that the identity of this team at least its an identity versus what we have right now.

The ducks were good at doing so much outlandish antics that the refs couldn't possible call every single one a penalty becuase they would be penalized all game. At least it would be entertaining to watch.

I know this probably isn't the answer, but Lord is this current team hard to watch some times. The media is playing it out like we are the bad guys in the Division because of Tkachuk and the players aren't using that for motivation to win, so let's bring in some guys who would thrive on that. Easier said than done I suppose though.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Do Tkachuk's pest behaviors actually help this team though?
It sure seems to motivate the opponents.
But does it make him and his teammates better?
I'm not so sure.

It's nice when he's scoring big goals and playing at a high level.

It's annoying to watch when he clearly seems distracted and pissed off and wants to do that rather than play hockey.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Nelson

I would like to see the Flames stay the course. I think they are playing well and eventually the results will start to show it.

Per NaturalStatTrick, they currently have:
-54.68% shot attempt for percentage,
-54.78% unblocked shot attempt for percentage,
-50.60% shot for percentage
-47.06 goal for percentage
-54.73% expected goal for percentage
-56.41% scoring chance for percentage and
-51.16% high danger scoring chance for percentage.

For this reason, I am confident that if the Flames stick with the lineup they have been playing, their results will improve.

I agree with this. I get some are having issues with bad periods but every team has bad periods and a full 60 is actually more rare to every team than most think. The only bad game imo was last night. The lost 2 close ones to arguably the projected first place team in the north. I fully expect this team to compete for maybe 2nd place in division but at minimum 4th.

People want to crap on tge league minimum players but Tkachuk hasn't been great of late. Valimaki is getting lit up 5 on 5 and pk. Mangiapane has been invisible of late. These guys get going and Valimaki finds his game could see some wins soon.

This is not that bad. Def not Edmonton bad

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Do Tkachuk's pest behaviors actually help this team though?
It sure seems to motivate the opponents.
But does it make him and his teammates better?
I'm not so sure.

I agree. Alot is made about finally having a proper pest on our team. However, when looking at body of work, I think of Doughty and Kassian, and I am not sure the impact is as big as it is made out.

After the Doughty hit and feud, Tkachuk was an ineffective player for like a month.

Kassian and the Oilers actually smashed the Flames the next game after that whole thing.

I love MT, but he is a much better player when he is focused on hockey. Also enough with the attempted toe drags this year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Do Tkachuk's pest behaviors actually help this team though?
It sure seems to motivate the opponents.
But does it make him and his teammates better?
I'm not so sure.

People keep saying he’s captain material, but I don’t see it. Would you make Marchand captain?

Who knows what goes on in the room but I’d have to be convinced.

[Toonage]

Tkachuk also has a penchant for getting hurt while trying to play the pest which puts his team at a serious disadvantage.

The Doughty issue - he hurt himself when he went to throw a big check, missed and landed on his back. Not the same the rest of the year.

Colorado Playoffs - Pest routine worked perfectly in Game 1. Game 2 he mixed it up and got drilled by Zadorov. Out he went.

Dallas playoffs - Tried to throw a reverse shoulder into (I think it was Oleksiak) and ended up concussing himself. Out he goes

If Tkachuk just concentrates on his game he's pretty amazing. The issue is getting him to do just that.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

if you don't have truly elite skaters, the team can still be better than the sum of its parts with an elite coach (see Trotz). yes there's that argument that a rather large coaching rotation hasn't made a difference with this core, but my argument continues to be we haven't yet tried that elite coach with a proven NHL pedigree.

Hartley - most recent success in 2001 prior to Flames, hasn't been in NHL since

Gully - first HC gig, not a HC now

Peters - mediocre results with Carolina, 50 games of awesome, out of NHL

Ward - first HC gig

which of the above screams "see! even this Scotty Bowman-like leader couldn't get them to play consistently!". it's the one final variable that in my opinion hasn't been tried yet. if a Boudreau or Gallant came in and it was still same old Flames, then I would definitely throw in the towel on this group and hit the detonator.

Gulutzan was Head Coach of the Dallas Stars from 2011 to 2013.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Jbo

I agree. Alot is made about finally having a proper pest on our team. However, when looking at body of work, I think of Doughty and Kassian, and I am not sure the impact is as big as it is made out.

After the Doughty hit and feud, Tkachuk was an ineffective player for like a month.

Kassian and the Oilers actually smashed the Flames the next game after that whole thing.

I love MT, but he is a much better player when he is focused on hockey. Also enough with the attempted toe drags this year.

I would disagree, Tkachuk sure he had a meltdown off the ice (no clue why)

However outside of Lindholm who is steadily improving....

Tkachuk is the Flames most valuable forward and its not even close.

he is definitely not the issue.... Flames need more emotion from their forwards not less....

[AC]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Dallas playoffs - Tried to throw a reverse shoulder into (I think it was Oleksiak) and ended up concussing himself. Out he goes

Not quite right on this example. He was playing the puck and got drilled from behind by Benn face-first into Oleksiak's shoulder.