Blow it up!

[troutman]

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

A few teams were able to figure out how to pull off a major deal this off season including one last week.

I don't see market dynamics changing too much in next couple of years with a flat cap and Flames having no significant money coming off the books.

This past off season might have been an opportune time to stockpile picks in a deep draft, make due with a bargain UFA or two in a depressed market and then pulling the trigger at the deadline if you thought you were anywhere close to a contender. But from what we heard, Treliving wasn't looking to move any of the big name forwards unless they were blown away by an offer.

I don't believe a deal is going to get any easier. The team is essentially managed as if they came off a SC win in last couple of years and they want to give the core one more chance to get it done. It's weird. I do kind of admire the loyalty though since for the most part I like these players and want to see them win.

I think deals specifically where teams were moving players for futures are the ones where the market will be specifically depressed. It's also something that the team probably isn't looking for - they are probably looking for hockey trades to change the make-up. But perhaps there just wasn't value for someone like Johnny.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out because on CP Radio Bingo and I both felt that the situation has changed enough that the possibility of Johnny re-signing here on a short-term deal is perhaps now in play. Pending UFAs are going to want to sign short-term deals so they still can cash out on a big long-term deal based on the assumption that COVID will end and economics will re-bound. Right now - a lot of teams are operating below the cap and the cap won't be growing.

I don't know what that all means for player contracts and trades - but I think it does change the landscape.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I was actually thinking last night once Gaudreau leaves in free agency next year the team will have maybe one elite talent in Tkachuk and even he may not be long for the organization. After that there's nothing close to an elite player in the pipeline. The reality is that this team is probably one year away from requiring a scorched earth rebuild. Maybe we should just sit back and try to enjoy this season before we go back to the drawing board and ice a team like the Senators for a few seasons.

I think they are a Darryl Sutter away from being a threat.

They need a system and a structure.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CGY12

I guess that depends on your personality. I wouldn't judge anybody who took that path. For somebody who has been in it for 30+ years and stuck it out during the young gun era, I'm at point of no return.

Hopefully one day before I go I can witness this team go a stretch where they are elite and the upper class of the league.

You are too demanding. There was that stretch under Keenan until we ran out of bodies and cap room.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I think they are a Darryl Sutter away from being a threat.

They need a system and a structure.

Isn't the view that Ward provides that but doesn't provide the motivaton/required kick in the bum?

[bigpete]

Frustrating thing is that when I look at this team on paper, they look good. Even really good. Lots of players in their prime or young players on the cusp of becoming really good. Three solid D pairings, and three solid forward lines...Backlund Bennett and Mangiapane as a third line is the best third line we've had in years (or at least should be).

Maybe I'm just an optimist but I think this team will turn it around and when they hit their stride, look out. It will be nice to get Dube back and then everyone will slot a little better. Let's see what happens.
Starting Feb 11 the Flames go on a nice little run playing 12 of their next 14 games against Vancouver, Edmonton, and Ottawa. That's an awesome chance to get their mojo going again.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You are too demanding. There was that stretch under Keenan until we ran out of bodies and cap room.

That one season after the trade deadline?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Frustration on hot takes go hand in hand.

This team unfortunately never seems to start well. It is very frustrating so I get it but this team will go on a decent run here and beat a bunch of teams and get back in the mix. I was definitely in favor of the huge trade this offseason that did not come to fruition and I was also in favor of going and getting the proven coach.

I am not going to freak out yet because I have noticed a few good things to start the year. End of the day this team needs to win a round of the playoffs this year or huge changes are required.

Observations:
- Hanifin and Tanev are the best d pair on the team
- Markstrom has been good but I think he will get better once he is settled in
- Monahan and Gaudreau look good when gifted offensive opportunities keep doing this
- The minimum contract forwards are all mediocre at best
- Valimaki is going to take more time to look decent because he has been meh so far
- bottom 6 has been mediocre
- I have been a huge Bennett fan but felt the organization missed an opportunity not selling high this past offseason. Same old story with Sam and I think an eventual split will be better for the player
- Gio and Backlund need to get better
-Tkachuk and Lindholm looks like a good combo
- Rittich looks like a horrible backup in his 2 brief appearances in buildings without fans

Not going to write this team off at all but I agree with the frustration that this season looks like the same old story from every year. The team was all talk about getting off to a great start and we can blame the 6 day break but the Habs just had a 5 day break and had no problem.

Good observations and I agree for the most part.

On the bolded, I'd say they've been far worse than mediocre. The worst part of the team, contributing nothing offensively, providing no energy and costing the team games.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bigpete

Frustrating thing is that when I look at this team on paper, they look good. Even really good. Lots of players in their prime or young players on the cusp of becoming really good. Three solid D pairings, and three solid forward lines...Backlund Bennett and Mangiapane as a third line is the best third line we've had in years (or at least should be).

Maybe I'm just an optimist but I think this team will turn it around and when they hit their stride, look out. It will be nice to get Dube back and then everyone will slot a little better. Let's see what happens.
Starting Feb 11 the Flames go on a nice little run playing 12 of their next 14 games against Vancouver, Edmonton, and Ottawa. That's an awesome chance to get their mojo going again.

My concern, on paper, is that the team lacks truly elite players. That if you match up our best v. other team's best - on many nights they have the better best players.

I think the exception now being in goal, where on most nights the Flames will have the better guy between the pipes.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I think they are a Darryl Sutter away from being a threat.

They need a system and a structure.

Darryl doesn't accept excuses and calls a spade a spade.... Darryl's teams were always strong defensively and everyone could see we were the hardest working team. With the talent we have if we were the hardest working team we would be winning our fair share of games and probably at the top of the division.

What I see is now and the past few years is the players dictating the level of play, From one night to the next you can never tell which players are going to show up and it runs though the line up.

We need an experienced coach that knows how to push the players and knows manage the team on the ice.

Average coach, average results....

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Buff

That one season after the trade deadline?

No, the season we lost 9-1 to SJ and then went on a huge run for 45 games. The year everyone got hurt, we could only dress 17 bodies because of cap, and we blew a 15 point division lead, and lost to the Hawks in Round 1.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My concern, on paper, is that the team lacks truly elite players. That if you match up our best v. other team's best - on many nights they have the better best players.

I think the exception now being in goal, where on most nights the Flames will have the better guy between the pipes.

As I said before more sobering is the fact that there's no elite players on the horizon. The 2018 season was probably the pinnacle for this group. I feel this team is close to going back to that perpetual state of mediocrity they did last decade for years trying to shuffle the deck chairs around a core of Iginla and a bunch of non-elite players. The organization can drag out a mediocre team for a few more years battling for that last playoff spot or go back to the drawing board and start over. Ideally that would be sooner than later as the trajectory is looking like they will be opening a new arena when the team will be on a steep decline. It may be best to start now that they don't have to worry about selling out an arena. As bad as Ottawa has played this season it's perfect for them as they don't have to worry about the economics of an empty arena. They will be better incrementally every year and that will help once arenas are back to capacity.

[Derek Sutton]

Team only has 4 really good forwards, and Dube (out) and Mangiapane who are on the cusp. The rest are passengers, maybe Backlund will come around but with Dube out, the line up is currently has 7 forwards who bring nothing to the ice. No matter how good the big 4 are, the contribution from the rest is abysmal, not going to win with so many spare parts, has beens and never weres dressed every night.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Good observations and I agree for the most part.

On the bolded, I'd say they've been far worse than mediocre. The worst part of the team, contributing nothing offensively, providing no energy and costing the team games.

I agree I should have said trash/garbage instead of mediocre because that is what they have been so far. Ryan is useless as a 4th liner. I am shocked Lucic has 2 goals because plays have died on his stick with regularity this year. Nordstrom is useless, regular season Sam Bennett is back to his usual self. I will give Leivo a little more rope since he is coming off a huge injury but he has sucked so far. Backlund should be able to carry a bottom 6 line so I am not sure we need to stuff Mangiapane down there. I want to see a top 6 of

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Mangiapane
Gaudreau-Monahan-Dube

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Team only has 4 really good forwards, and Dube (out) and Mangiapane who are on the cusp. The rest are passengers, maybe Backlund will come around but with Dube out, the line up is currently has 7 forwards who bring nothing to the ice. No matter how good the big 4 are, the contribution from the rest is abysmal, not going to win with so many spare parts, has beens and never weres dressed every night.

I just don't buy that.

Look at a team like Vegas for example.. Bottom six consists of Kolesar (who?), Carrier, Reaves, Roy, and Nosek.. They have five points combined on the season, and are 5-1-1.

Calgary has the pieces to compete and win on any given night. It comes down to coaching, commitment, and a certain mentality to execute the small details.

In addition to that it's been six games. Six. The five game layoff came at probably the worst possible time as well.

Fundamentally I think their is an issue with the top end players on this roster. They need to lead the charge on a game to game basis and set the tone for the bottom six. They are extremely inconsistent in their efforts and it has a trickle down effect on the bottom half of the roster.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My concern, on paper, is that the team lacks truly elite players. That if you match up our best v. other team's best - on many nights they have the better best players.

I think the exception now being in goal, where on most nights the Flames will have the better guy between the pipes.

This.

I am a huge Gaudreau and Monahan and Lindholm fan.

Even Tkachuk.

But their ability to be be elite consistently is non-existent. They aren't elite in any way (Gaudreau was, but isn't anymore). They are just really good.

And you can't be the best by just being really good unfortunately. Because all the teams are kinda really good. You need one or two elite level game breakers surrounded by good to really good players.

We don't have that.

[zamler]

When this team has a legit coach, which is almost never, we excel.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Calgary's Yakapov..

Nailed it!

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am not demanding that Ward be fired. I can't say that I am happy with him, and I will say that I was disappointed when he was chosen to be the head coach 'officially' this past off-season. When the Flames first brought Ward into the organization, I was actually fairly excited about him, and even thought he might be the real 'gem' behind the bench that accounted for a lot of what was positive for that team's success that season.


Now I know differently. I don't like his lineup choices, I don't like how he manages the game and his in-game changes (which aren't much it seems), and I don't like how inconsistent this team plays under him.


I think he will ride-out this season anyway. 14 day quarantine periods are tough to absorb for any team. The assistant coaching staff would need to be retained for sure unless Conroy wants to come down and try his hand at coaching for 2 weeks.


On one hand, I don't think that Ward is bad enough to merit a 14 day quarantine period without a proper head coach.


On the other hand, I will concede the argument that Ward is not a proper head coach anyway, so what's the difference?


This coach is difficult to dislike personally. I like the air around him. He seems like an actual good guy, and I will genuinely feel sorry for him when he is let go. I didn't feel that way with Gulutzan, and of course I didn't feel that way with Peters (obviously!). Ward just seems like a 'good guy'.


As for who to replace him, that's a good question. My preference is Darryl Sutter. Proven to fix teams like Calgary where motivation and team cohesion is an issue. He gets his teams to work hard every night, and he gets his teams to commit to all 3 zones. However, does he even want to coach? I still think he does, and he was interested in the Flames' gig up until they hired Peters. With Covid, the world is a different place now, and perhaps he has just decided to call it a career at this point, but I would look at him as the best option available.


Boudreau never screams 'championship' guy to me. Teams under him never seem to exceed any sort of expectations. I am not fooled by his record, and I think he has had the benefit of coaching really good teams for some reason. However, I am willing to try him.


Gallant seems like a great coach too, but how he gets fired seemingly out of nowhere even though he had his teams experiencing success frightens me a bit. Why?? He seems like a great coach otherwise, though his track record is a little small comparatively.


So the candidates are one guy who is probably really good, but may not even be interested in coaching any longer, one guy who doesn't have a single season of 'exceeding expectations' (and therefore IMO, may not be an upgrade), and another who exceeds expectations but gets fired quickly for some reason. Kind of tough to pick the right apple when they all seem really bruised from this bunch. Tougher still when you need to wait 14 days of quarantine with this tight schedule. My hope is that Sutter is already secretly quarantining.



If Ward is not the right coach, then IMO he should just be let go period, quarantine or not.


If Ward is not the problem, then the Flames are better served by starting to take a look at which pieces that they can start selling so that they can enter a rebuild, and allow pieces like Kylington, Mackey, Gawdin, Phillips, etc., to get some NHL experience.


I don't think it has come to that. This is only 6 games in, so a bit premature to start these discussions, but only winning against the lowly Vancouver Canucks isn't a good metric for this team, and the glaring inconsistencies with regards to effort or even just readiness is damning.



I loved Jay Feaster as GM in Calgary for exactly two days - his speech about the Flames not using the rebuild as an excuse to lose and that playoffs are the mandate (everyone knows what he means by that), and I also really loved what he said back then about the team itself - that there is a poison that permeates this team and they just don't do what it takes to win. The rebuild was supposed to fix that, but it didn't.


Also, someone pointed out in this thread that leadership from the players is what's important and missing. I think Giordano works hard. I think he is a great captain. In fact, I think he is a better captain than RoR AINEC, and he won a cup and the Conn Smythe. People forget that for years losing was attached to him. He was specifically in that 'Vegas trip' planning on the bench that Giguere publicly complained about as the losing culture in Colorado. He then goes on to get traded and does a hit and run while intoxicated. His tenure on the Sabres went exactly as predicted, no? It wasn't until he went to the Blues that suddenly he became a winner. Well, I will argue that Giordano is a great enough Captain for this team, and just because he hasn't won doesn't make him less of a captain.



Now watch the Flames go 9-1 in the next ten games and have us all excited and happy again! I don't doubt that they could - this is a good team that isn't playing well, but when they are 'on', they are a joy to watch.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My concern, on paper, is that the team lacks truly elite players. That if you match up our best v. other team's best - on many nights they have the better best players.

I think the exception now being in goal, where on most nights the Flames will have the better guy between the pipes.

Often true, but not last night, and they still got worked pretty hard.