Bennett’s biggest problem is confidence. The Flames playoff run the year after he was drafted was probably the worst for his development.
The NHL isn’t a developmental league and with Gaudreau & Monahan emerging as stars in 2015 and then the Hamilton trade, the team was in win now mode. The rebuild was over quick. He should have been placed in more situations to succeed and learn from his mistakes, maybe even spend some time in the AHL to mature his confidence.
If you swapped him & Draisatl in that draft it would be interesting.
Either he would be a different player alongside Connor or wilt into the gristmill of Oiler developmental failure like Pujujube.
The comment about Bennett not using his line mates is bang on. He almost always shoots the puck within a fraction of a second of getting it or dumps it in. When he does try to pass, you can bet it gets picked off. He also can't handle the puck at full speed but he always tries.
Honestly, I think there is some merit to the mismanagement angle though. The team was so fixated on making him a center but he doesn't play the game like a center. Yeah, I realize he was drafted as a center out of junior (played on the wing half the time in Kingston though), but some, if not most junior centers, end up playing wing in the NHL. He isn't good at faceoffs, can't pass, and prefers to enter the zone from the wing.
Then the Flames move him back and forth. They should have just put him on the wing right out of junior and left him there, or put him in the AHL to get eased into the role better.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 01-27-2021 at 06:35 PM.
I really really really thought this was going to be his year, after the playoffs he had. I thought he had established himself as the 3rd line centre for this year.
The problem was moving Lindholm from the wing to centre (which I believe was the correct move). After the shuffle down for 23 and 11 that left 93 as odd man out again.
I still believe there is room for him to grow in the organization, and step 1 would be putting him back to centre on line 4, but getting him some linemates that work for him. Easier said than done though.
Bennett’s biggest problem is confidence. The Flames playoff run the year after he was drafted was probably the worst for his development.
The NHL isn’t a developmental league and with Gaudreau & Monahan emerging as stars in 2015 and then the Hamilton trade, the team was in win now mode. The rebuild was over quick. He should have been placed in more situations to succeed and learn from his mistakes, maybe even spend some time in the AHL to mature his confidence.
If you swapped him & Draisatl in that draft it would be interesting.
Either he would be a different player alongside Connor or wilt into the gristmill of Oiler developmental failure like Pujujube.
You make a good point in regards to development. About half way down the page on this link Craig Button talks about player development. How some NHL teams can fail the players and used an example of Dan Cleary. Not sure how to embed but it starts about half way down.
"VERSATILITY ". The death knell words of Sam Bennett at center under Geoff Ward. Lol, same BS different year. And you can spin whichever way you want. Onto Bennett or onto the Flames for effing him about.
Also, let's make something clear. I've never seen or heard anything about Sam Bennett using coaching as a scapegoat for anything. We fans do that.
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You make a good point in regards to development. About half way down the page on this link Craig Button talks about player development. How some NHL teams can fail the players and used an example of Dan Cleary. Not sure how to embed but it starts about half way down.
Good point. Dan Cleary is what I think Bennett has become and the dreams of a what he was when he was selected #4 overall need to be put to bed.
I think this is the quote you’re referring to.
Quote:
Les Jackson, assistant GM of the Dallas Stars and long time NHL exec once said “the NHL is as responsible for failing players as they are failing on their own.” It’s a sobering indictment of poor development at the minor pro level or, as Button told in a story he shared, one that can fall on the NHL team as well. Button followed that up with “if you take a player and you don’t help them develop or understand what their development needs are you are failing the player.” I interpret that as you don’t have the right teaching staff at the AHL level or you brought the player to the NHL too quick and skipped an important step.
The example Button used was Dan Cleary who finished his career as an important player in a Stanley Cup winning situation in Detroit. Cleary was drafted 13th overall by Chicago, failed there, went to Edmonton, failed there. He went to the Coyotes, not much happened and out of the lockout year he signed as a FA with Detroit. Detroit told him “your game is skating, puck possession, thinking and movement. Play that way here.”
Cleary later said Detroit was the first team that told him to play to his identity and helped him develop in that role. It took 4 teams for someone to tell him the right way to play and help him do it. So essentially, as Button said, “he was a bust until he wasn’t.” How many youth hockey players can you look with a layman’s eye at and say “they aren’t very good”. At 14-16, there are many current NHL players who would have been in that category that people would have tried to run out of good programs. The late bloomer.
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Confident Bennett. Forget the playoffs, I would rather go back to his play in around December 2017 - that whole month he was brimming with total confidence and it felt like he by far the best player on the ice every night. Look at AC's highlights from that season - look at his poise behind the net in that Ottawa game or his cycling against Vancouver:
...and then, there's unsure, invisible-at-best Bennett. He doesn't know what the team wants from him, he's afraid to make a mistake. All that stuff that usually ties into how players play for their coaches. It's not a lack of effort, that much I believe firmly.
As long as Bennett is a Flame we'll probably never see confident Bennett because we've elected to bury him and rarely does he get to play with players faster than him, which is something I feel he thrives beside.
At this point as a fan of the player I just hope we trade him and let him find his footing elsewhere. As a fan of the team, we're not going to get what we want out of him because we're stuck in the same cycle of mediocrity that defines us.
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I think I might actually get roasted the most for this comment but I think the biggest problem is he has not had a consistent role on the team. His versatility has been a hinderance somewhat because he can play just about anywhere and not look too out of place. Due to this he has been doing just that, playing all over the lineup and not having any consistent assignments or linemates. I think this is a bit of mismanagement but the team has essentially been in win now mode ever since he joined the team so the coaches are trying to win and care less about development.
Conroy has even stated management has viewed him as a center since they drafted him but the coaches haven’t been putting him there. We can debate all we want the reasons for this but I believe it’s because the coach wanted veterans in those positions because thats just the kinda thing coaches want. Jankowski was a bit of a different case because he was a big, rangy center who was good at face offs in the lower levels. Every coach would like a 6’4” center so I think there was a bit of an exception for him.
That isn’t the part I will get roasted about..
I think putting him as the 3rd line center in the playoffs put him in a position where he knew what his role was and it was a consistent assignment with consistent linemates. And yes I do believe he has chemistry with Dube but I think it’s in the organizations best interests to let Dube play higher up the lineup, he has the skill and tools to excel there.
I think he should be put back as the 3rd line center and have Mangiapane on his wing. To me that is the right thing to do after his showing in the playoffs. We can talk about refs putting the whistles away in the playoffs all we want I’m not fully buying into that theory. I think there is some truth to it but it’s not the reasons for such a dramatic change. I think Bennett doesn’t worry or overthink things in the playoffs, he just plays his game and let’s his instincts carry him. In regular season he is too focused on silencing the critics and doing well. This along with not having a consistent role hinders him.
We have discussed Bennett plenty but has anyone else noticed how rough Backlund has looked since the break? I haven’t liked his game in the slightest.
Maybe with Lindholm shifting to center we don’t need Backlund as much for tougher matchups? Maybe we should consider his age/cap hit and think about moving him?
Wouldn’t it be fun to have a gritty 3rd line that are puck hounds in Pelletier-Bennett-Mangiapane?
In saying this I still think Bennett-Backlund-Mangiapane can be a good line once fully healthy.
I just think Bennett does play better up the middle where he can use his speed and tenacious style to create time and space.
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Confident Bennett. Forget the playoffs, I would rather go back to his play in around December 2017 - that whole month he was brimming with total confidence and it felt like he by far the best player on the ice every night. Look at AC's highlights from that season - look at his poise behind the net in that Ottawa game or his cycling against Vancouver:
...and then, there's unsure, invisible-at-best Bennett. He doesn't know what the team wants from him, he's afraid to make a mistake. All that stuff that usually ties into how players play for their coaches. It's not a lack of effort, that much I believe firmly.
As long as Bennett is a Flame we'll probably never see confident Bennett because we've elected to bury him and rarely does he get to play with players faster than him, which is something I feel he thrives beside.
At this point as a fan of the player I just hope we trade him and let him find his footing elsewhere. As a fan of the team, we're not going to get what we want out of him because we're stuck in the same cycle of mediocrity that defines us.
Yeah he does seem more confident throughout the video. Shows flashes of skill and ability. especially when he is engaged and using his speed. Couldn't help but notice lots of plays, guys getting set up but missing the net.
At this point if he doesn't start playing a simple north south game and stop with the lazy neutral zone holding/hooking penalty's, he should be eating popcorn.
His draft pedigree means nothing at this point. Play the game the way you know how to play in the playoffs. Move your feet.
In my opinion Ward has to decide what position he is going to play. Enough of this shuffling. Be frank and honest and give him an assignment.
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I agree, there are two Sam Bennetts. There's the one his fans and defenders see (40-50 point top six Bennett) and then there is the reality of Sam Bennett.
The reality about Sam Bennett is he has become the sum of his parts. Sam is not a top six player nor is he a player with any upside. What you see is what you get. Sam does not excel in any part of the game. NONE. He is an average skater. He's a below average puck handler and passer. He possesses a shot that struggles to break cellophane. He doesn't display a high level of instincts for the game and does not have a high hockey IQ. Sam doesn't use his line mates worth a damn and doesn't help them by making open ice. If we're being honest, Bennett peaked at 17 and has played at or below that level his whole career. The only reason he's been given opportunity is because of his draft pedigree.
Sam Bennett is not a good hockey player. Forget all the excuses and just look at the results, Sam is not a good player. He doesn't produce when played with skill players. He can't play a defensive role, because he's smart like potato. That's actually leads to a place where Sam is a clear leader. He's continually a leader amongst the forwards for the team's green jacket. The only area of the game he excels in is running around and hitting people, a role his body can't seem to take. He's been surpassed by other players on the depth chart and has watched his opportunities plummet. Sam is what Sam is, and it isn't a good player. I'm sure he's a fine upstanding citizen, a good team mate, and a genuinely good human being, but he is not a good hockey player.
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And that's how I got my new shell. It looks just like the shell I threw out yesterday and I found it in the same dumpster, but this one had a live raccoon inside.
I really wanted Bennett to develop into a great 1C. I believed when people said it was a lack of opportunity and that he was mishandled. Now, I think the reality is if Sam Bennett was a top line C, he’d be a top line C. He’s not because he isn’t. Simple as that.
I agree, there are two Sam Bennetts. There's the one his fans and defenders see (40-50 point top six Bennett) and then there is the reality of Sam Bennett.
The reality about Sam Bennett is he has become the sum of his parts. Sam is not a top six player nor is he a player with any upside. What you see is what you get. Sam does not excel in any part of the game. NONE. He is an average skater. He's a below average puck handler and passer. He possesses a shot that struggles to break cellophane. He doesn't display a high level of instincts for the game and does not have a high hockey IQ. Sam doesn't use his line mates worth a damn and doesn't help them by making open ice. If we're being honest, Bennett peaked at 17 and has played at or below that level his whole career. The only reason he's been given opportunity is because of his draft pedigree.
Sam Bennett is not a good hockey player. Forget all the excuses and just look at the results, Sam is not a good player. He doesn't produce when played with skill players. He can't play a defensive role, because he's smart like potato. That's actually leads to a place where Sam is a clear leader. He's continually a leader amongst the forwards for the team's green jacket. The only area of the game he excels in is running around and hitting people, a role his body can't seem to take. He's been surpassed by other players on the depth chart and has watched his opportunities plummet. Sam is what Sam is, and it isn't a good player. I'm sure he's a fine upstanding citizen, a good team mate, and a genuinely good human being, but he is not a good hockey player.
It would be nice if it was that neat and tidy but it’s not. If it was Bennett wouldn’t be in the league.
It’s more like the quote from Les Jackson posted above. “the NHL is as responsible for failing players as they are failing on their own.”
The Flames developed him like a Oiler & threw the keys on the table because they thought needed him to be ready for the NHL instead of putting him in positions to develop or even develop in the AHL.
I agree, there are two Sam Bennetts. There's the one his fans and defenders see (40-50 point top six Bennett) and then there is the reality of Sam Bennett.
The reality about Sam Bennett is he has become the sum of his parts. Sam is not a top six player nor is he a player with any upside. What you see is what you get. Sam does not excel in any part of the game. NONE. He is an average skater. He's a below average puck handler and passer. He possesses a shot that struggles to break cellophane. He doesn't display a high level of instincts for the game and does not have a high hockey IQ. Sam doesn't use his line mates worth a damn and doesn't help them by making open ice. If we're being honest, Bennett peaked at 17 and has played at or below that level his whole career. The only reason he's been given opportunity is because of his draft pedigree.
Sam Bennett is not a good hockey player. Forget all the excuses and just look at the results, Sam is not a good player. He doesn't produce when played with skill players. He can't play a defensive role, because he's smart like potato. That's actually leads to a place where Sam is a clear leader. He's continually a leader amongst the forwards for the team's green jacket. The only area of the game he excels in is running around and hitting people, a role his body can't seem to take. He's been surpassed by other players on the depth chart and has watched his opportunities plummet. Sam is what Sam is, and it isn't a good player. I'm sure he's a fine upstanding citizen, a good team mate, and a genuinely good human being, but he is not a good hockey player.
Can't say I disagree as harsh as that assessment is.
I don't see a player that lacks confidence. Quite the opposite in fact. I see a player that thinks he can still be an elite scorer and tries to do too much himself. He is a decent hitter, forechecker, good at crowding the net, and can be a pest to play against, but is not good enough on a consistent basis on the attack to warrant more than bottom 6 or bottom 3 ice-time. And while he is "good" at those things, he isn't elite enough to make up for the negatives. Plus he can't seem to do those things without taking momentum killing penalties. And this might be confirmation bias when watching games, but is there a forward on the team that goes offside more than him? As far as centers on the team go, I would take Lindholm, Monahan, Backlund, and Ryan over him every day.
I think the worst thing that happened to him was going right from junior to the NHL. He should have kept developing in junior and the minors. Looking at that 1st round in 2014, there are some pretty successful players that either went back to junior or the minors before becoming NHL regulars. For whatever reason, they thought Bennett was too good for that. Sam Reinhart, Draisaitl, Fabbri, Pastrnak, Larkin, Nylander, Ehlers, and Tuch all went back for some development before before being thrown into the NHL.
I think Conroy's comment about management always seeing him as a center, although coaches didn't want to play him there, is very telling. It tells me that that management was trying to wedge him in even if the coaches didn't feel he was ready for the grind.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 01-27-2021 at 08:54 PM.
Hard to disagree with all the points New Era made except "Sam Bennett is not a good hockey player". He is good enough to be in the NHL and excel in the playoffs, that meets my definition of "good hockey player". Sam Bennett did not and will not reach his original potential of Top 6 scoring center. However I do believe he has some upside to become a better player in regards to discipline, special teams and making smart simple plays. If he can do that his versatility will make him a huge (and inexpensive) asset to the team. I am not confident he will get better though. He has had 6 seasons, still takes stupid penalties, still doesn't pass, still tries toe drags that never work, still makes moves at the line to put his line mates offside, still tries to drive the net with no lane and get easily picked off and when he does pass its an absolute rock nowhere near where it should be. I don't see improvement year over year and its not due to lack of opportunity. If a 3rd round pick did all the stupid stuff Bennett does he would have been out of the league after their first or second year, or never got a sniff at all. Luckily Bennett has the size, speed and tenacity to be somewhat effective in a bottom 6 role in the regular season and very effective in the playoffs.
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
There are two Sam Bennetts:
Confident Bennett. Forget the playoffs, I would rather go back to his play in around December 2017 - that whole month he was brimming with total confidence and it felt like he by far the best player on the ice every night. Look at AC's highlights from that season - look at his poise behind the net in that Ottawa game or his cycling against Vancouver:
...and then, there's unsure, invisible-at-best Bennett. He doesn't know what the team wants from him, he's afraid to make a mistake. All that stuff that usually ties into how players play for their coaches. It's not a lack of effort, that much I believe firmly.
As long as Bennett is a Flame we'll probably never see confident Bennett because we've elected to bury him and rarely does he get to play with players faster than him, which is something I feel he thrives beside.
At this point as a fan of the player I just hope we trade him and let him find his footing elsewhere. As a fan of the team, we're not going to get what we want out of him because we're stuck in the same cycle of mediocrity that defines us.
So if I am reading this correctly:
He was really good for a month over 3 years ago, and it was because of him.
All other times for 5 years, when he has been mediocre to awful, its the organizations fault. Wrong line mates and bad coaching.
Seems likely.
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- Gets promoted to higher line, generally looks good at first but tries to do too much and takes bad penalties
- After taking the bad penalties he comes out more timid the next game and is a much less effective hockey player who's afraid to take a risk or make a mistake
- Gets demoted back to 4th line where he may look okay individually but won't achieve much since his linemates are usually subpar, hence restarting the cycle
And round and round we go.
Honestly the biggest mistake is that I don't think he's actually gotten a run of 10 consecutive games with the better players on this team since his rookie season playing with Backlund.
And I think that hurts him because then he either tries to do too much in order to make an impression (usually taking bad penalties in the process, example Game 2), or he tries to not take any risks in order to not make a mistake and plays too timid (the last three games)
I think it's a little bit linemates but I do think this is a big contributor to his lack of success as well. He's never figured out how to play a tenacious style that won't result in him taking penalties in the regular season, and it's limited his regular season effectiveness.
I would add to this that one of the reasons he is so much more effective in the playoffs is because the refs call far fewer of the minor obstruction/holding/tripping calls that Bennett gets called for during the regular season. As a result, he is able to play his physical style of hockey confidently, without fear of heading to the box every time he extends his forearms towards another player.
I get the penalty thing, its an issue for sure, but this season he has had 2 penalties, one of which was borderline at best, the other one was stupid for sure, but I agree with a couple posts on here, he does play tentative after penalties and then he is ineffective, I watched the highlight video that was posted on this thread, for the people that say he doesn't pass or have vision, sorry that just isn't true, that season alone, if half of those set ups go in, he has another 10 points, that makes that season a 46 point season, with probably more opportunities, its a fifty point season, thus his confidence grows. Last year in the playoff bubble, when 19 got hurt, he filled in on PP1, that's when it began to pop, fast forward to this year, in the scrimmages, Dube is changing sweaters to go on PP2, that's his career in a nutshell, does his job well for a small sample size, doesn't get rewarded. Last season all the hype about him moving up the lineup to replace Frolik, no results for 1 period and he's replaced, 88 moves up doesn't produce for 10 plus games, 88 is a revelation. I'm not saying that 93 is better than 88 or 29 at this point but name me a player on this current roster whose leash is shorter? I'll wait.
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I don't think he's as bad as his detractors think, but he hasn't taken the opportunity and ran with it once again.
An off camp had him start on the fourth line. A terrible start for the third line had him promoted ... and there it was a chance. Playing with Backund and Mangiapane is all he could ask for. He didn't produce.
I like him at center too, but I like the Flames having a solid top six more, and the Tkachuk/Lindholm thing is working meaning there's no room at center.
But Bennett has had 4 1/3 games with players that he should be able to work with, and he's not producing. Is Backlund off to a slow start? That's probably part of it. But it's a show me league, and Bennett hasn't shown much.
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