DC Capitol Riot & Subsequent Fallout Thread (Jan 2021)

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by calculoso

You’re completely misrepresenting the story.

Democrats wanted the payments upped to $2000 but without the extra social media stuff that Trump wanted.

Mitch and the Republicans introduced a Bill that tied the $2000 and the other Trump demands together. The Democrats objected and this is why the payments aren’t $2000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/29/covi...us-checks.html

Yup, what happened with the $2000 checks was literally the exact same scenario from the classic Simpsons episode "Bart's Comet":

KENT BROCKMAN
With our utter annihilation imminent, our federal government has snapped into action. We go live now via satellite to the floor of the United States congress.

SPEAKER
Then it is unanimous, we are going to approve the bill to evacuate the town of Springfield in the great state of--

CONGRESSMAN
Wait a second, I want to tack on a rider to that bill - $30 million of taxpayer money to support the perverted arts.

SPEAKER
All in favor of the amended Springfield-slash-pervert bill?

FLOOR
Boo!

SPEAKER
Bill defeated.

KENT BROCKMAN
I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply doesn't work.

In this case, the party tacking on the completely unrelated rider that poisoned the bill was the Republicans. The Democrats passed a clean $2,000 stimulus check bill in the House. Moscow Mitch torpedoed it in the Senate by trying to satisfy an unrelated demand from Trump.

[Matata]

The left has more fundamental trust of institutions, The right is more likely to have people who have been completely disenfranchised by these same institutions, making it much more fertile ground for conspiracies.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think tazering yourself in the balls and then dying should get some kind of double Darwin award for services to both science and irony

I love the story (don't get me wrong) but the links all seem to other links, and no direct source. I even read the 1130 Advocate link in Vancouver which doesn't mention it.

Is this actually true, or just a reddit meme?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Matata

The left has more fundamental trust of institutions, The right is more likely to have people who have been completely disenfranchised by these same institutions, making it much more fertile ground for conspiracies.

You can't say this after the Sanders campaign, the BLM protests, and the growing rump of radicals in the Democrat caucus.

Both sides have a significant problem with truth, trust, and violence. The real difference is that the right is significantly MORE violent, more distrustful, and thanks to structural racism has managed to retain far more legitimacy in-spite of their radicalism over the past twenty-five years (I'm using the Oklahoma bombings as a benchmark).

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Where is extremist polarization happening on the left? What are some hugely popular left-wing conspiracies that have absolutely no basis in reality that are being shared on social media? What is the left-wing equivalent of QAnon?

This is not a both sides, many sides issue. A very large swath of conservatives have abandoned any sense of good reason and plunged head-first into extremist crazytown. That's not happening on the left. And no, I don't need to "get out of my liberal echo chamber". On Facebook, I'm friends with people with a variety of political views. Without exception, my liberal friends almost always share news from reputable sources that can be easily fact checked, and in the rare times that they share something that is false (or even only partially true), someone else almost always corrects them in the comments, and the OP admits their mistake for sharing something without checking its validity first. The few extremist conservative friends I have on Facebook live in an entirely different reality from the rest of us where facts simply don't exist. And my moderate conservative friends feel completely alienated and lost. They acknowledge the right-wing movement has been hijacked by lunatics, but they can't bring themselves to vote for a left or centre-left party/candidate.

As you say, it's not equivalent, but they do exist. Anti-Vaxxers and PETA fanatics being two examples that come to mind.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well you did say, "Saying no, my social media sources and my tribe are different, is just a delusion."

I think the left is different. I think the right has been poisoned. There was a time in my memory where right and left were both moored to reality. Now, the mainstream right is disengaged from reality and therefore borderline impossible to reason with.

The left tribe is different right now. That's just the truth.

You are part of the problem. You can’t see there are problems on both sides.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Leondros

You are part of the problem. You can’t see there are problems on both sides.

That was never said.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

As you say, it's not equivalent, but they do exist. Anti-Vaxxers and PETA fanatics being two examples that come to mind.

See my earlier post in this thread. Statistically, anti-vaxxers are more likely to be conservatives than liberals, contrary to the popular stereotype. As for PETA fanatics, nobody considers them part of the mainstream left. That's the distinction that's really important to make: nobody is denying there aren't extremists on both sides, but the issue is that the lunatics on the right are now a large part of the conservative mainstream while the lunatics on the left are consigned to the fringes and have no real power.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

That was never said.

I don’t feel like going through each post but it definitely was said/implied.

The right is super detached from reality and are the ones who are wrong. The left isn’t and therefore has less blame.

Politics has become this hugely polarizing demon where no one can ever find middle ground. This forum is a perfect example. I don’t identify as right or left but on most issues find myself relatively balanced and in the middle. I can have discussions with most of my super right and super left friends and see where they are coming from and we can find some middle ground on issues like taxation, policing, rights, and social programs. I don’t see that happening nearly as much as it did before social media.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I don’t feel like going through each post but it definitely was said/implied.

The right is super detached from reality and are the ones who are wrong. The left isn’t and therefore has less blame.

Politics has become this hugely polarizing demon where no one can ever find middle ground. This forum is a perfect example. I don’t identify as right or left but on most issues find myself relatively balanced and in the middle. I can have discussions with most of my super right and super left friends and see where they are coming from and we can find some middle ground on issues like taxation, policing, rights, and social programs. I don’t see that happening nearly as much as it did before social media.

No no, that isn’t how this works. You deliberately misrepresented the point of the quote in your post, and now claim that it was said elsewhere. Show me.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

You can't say this after the Sanders campaign, the BLM protests, and the growing rump of radicals in the Democrat caucus.

Both sides have a significant problem with truth, trust, and violence. The real difference is that the right is significantly MORE violent, more distrustful, and thanks to structural racism has managed to retain far more legitimacy in-spite of their radicalism over the past twenty-five years (I'm using the Oklahoma bombings as a benchmark).

BLM wasnt/isnt a leftwing protest, it is black community protest, that the left supports it doesn't make it 'theirs' and the riots that tend to happen in any poor community when the police do something heinous just once too often are no more BLM's responsibility or fault than the LA riots were Rodney Kings, there is no connection or equivalence with BLM and the Washington riot, no BLM march ever set out to start a riot or burn a dam thing, the trouble was/is always a result of those in the community that have nothing to lose boiling over when the cops typically withdraw from the community after they have effed up, these incidents have been happening periodically all my life, Watts, Detroit, Brixton and the Notting Hill Carnival in the UK, they have little to do with politics and everything to do with angry poor people pushed a little too far.

In Washington they gathered with the express intention of doing what they did, taking the Congress building by force and overthrowing the election result, an action that the right forty years ago would have assumed could only be the result of a left wing group.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

No no, that isn’t how this works. You deliberately misrepresented the point of the quote in your post, and now claim that it was said elsewhere. Show me.

I have work to do, maybe later.

[81MC]

I think the ‘mainstream right’ is a lot of things, but ‘disengaged from reality’ is a pretty unfair.

With the media and internet in our hands it can look like an overwhelming number of these peoples are out there. Most right leaning people I know I might consider stupid, ignorant, naive and flat out wrong sure. But I don’t know if I could say they’re detached from reality for having a different take.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I think the ‘mainstream right’ is a lot of things, but ‘disengaged from reality’ is a pretty unfair.

With the media and internet in our hands it can look like an overwhelming number of these peoples are out there. Most right leaning people I know I might consider stupid, ignorant, naive and flat out wrong sure. But I don’t know if I could say they’re detached from reality for having a different take.

The mainstream right in Canada isn't as far gone as it is in the United States, so keep that in mind during these discussions and your interactions with Canadian conservatives. Per opinion surveys, 45% of Trump voters supported storming the Capitol and 70% (!!!) think Biden's election win was fraudulent. If that's not detached from reality, what is?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I think the ‘mainstream right’ is a lot of things, but ‘disengaged from reality’ is a pretty unfair.

With the media and internet in our hands it can look like an overwhelming number of these peoples are out there. Most right leaning people I know I might consider stupid, ignorant, naive and flat out wrong sure. But I don’t know if I could say they’re detached from reality for having a different take.

really? my right wing acquaintances have all slowly gone bat #### crazy in the last 5 or 6 years, I have watched them all go from being mostly Christian anti abortion but in all other respects quite left wing in outlook to slowly becoming gun nuts without owning a gun, then Trumpists, over the last 2 years they have all started to doubt vaccines and the George Soros anti jewish element has crept in which is ironic as they all support Israel as well.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I don’t feel like going through each post but it definitely was said/implied.

The right is super detached from reality and are the ones who are wrong. The left isn’t and therefore has less blame.

Politics has become this hugely polarizing demon where no one can ever find middle ground. This forum is a perfect example. I don’t identify as right or left but on most issues find myself relatively balanced and in the middle. I can have discussions with most of my super right and super left friends and see where they are coming from and we can find some middle ground on issues like taxation, policing, rights, and social programs. I don’t see that happening nearly as much as it did before social media.

This can be true and IMO is.

Remember a super long time ago when the right-wing president, his sons and his lawyer told thousands of his supporters to march to the Capitol for a "trial by combat" and to show strength so they did? I know it was a while ago, but five people died as a result, two bombs were found, the building was overrun and vandalized, the entirety of the house, senate and even the VP of the USA were evacuated when the building was overrun. It was an intelligence disaster as the terrorists gained access into members' offices and even stole mail. Anyway, it was all predicated on the completely detached-from-reality notion that the election results were somehow fraudulent and the election was stolen.

That's just an example from this week.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

really? my right wing acquaintances have all slowly gone bat #### crazy in the last 5 or 6 years, I have watched them all go from being mostly Christian anti abortion but in all other respects quite left wing in outlook to slowly becoming gun nuts without owning a gun, then Trumpists, over the last 2 years they have all started to doubt vaccines and the George Soros anti jewish element has crept in which is ironic as they all support Israel as well.

My cousin's wife posted on Facebook about beheading Trudeau for being a traitor. The right has lost their collective mind.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Just look at the thanks button on CP, if you started tracking based on key words and ideologies you get the same posters always thanking the same content, same right/left attitudes and same people. Its a perfect case study on group think and it can spiral quite easily.

I think the one major difference is that CP doesnt track our thanks and then push the posts we would most likely support to the top of the message boards while actively pushing the ones we would disagree with down to the bottom.

Of course people will have similar opinions and ideological leanings to others, but regardless of that we all see the other points of view in the thread - unless we are actively not reading them.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

My cousin's wife posted on Facebook about beheading Trudeau for being a traitor. The right has lost their collective mind.

Its odd, we live in a weird world where capitalism has completely won out and so the left wing is reduced to promising more money if you support their plan while at the same time the supposed 'winner' the right finds its views on race and sexuality utterly marginalised and sees its inevitable demise to a society both here and in the states who want nothing to do with their traditional right wing views of morality, race and sexuality.

Maybe that's why the right wing have gone bat #### crazy, they won the 'war' against communism only to find that their kids are all polyamourous rap music fans or goths that dont want anything to do with guns, muscle cars or beating up gays and hispanics

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

dont want anything to do with guns, muscle cars or beating up gays and hispanics

Not sure what the first two have to do with the last two, but okay