Actor Formerly Known as Ellen Page, Now Elliot Page

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hm. I wonder why he decided to stick with the 'E?'

Ellen to Elliot?

You could literally pick any name you want. Its interesting.

I only know a few trans people personally, so this is entirely anecdotal, but it seems relatively common to choose a similar-sounding name after transitioning, e.g. Daniel -> Danielle or Chris -> Christina. So Ellen -> Elliot fits that pattern, as would Ellen -> Allan if he didn't want to stick with the 'E' initial.

Obviously that's not going to be true for all trans people, and some undoubtedly want a completely fresh start with a new name that is nothing like their former name, but it does seem to be the case more often than not.

[Fuzz]

I think it all goes back to Nintendo, they really started the trend.

The English manual for Super Mario Bros. 2 refers to Birdo as “a male who thinks he is a girl"[1] and would prefer to be called "Birdetta". Some take that as a representation of Birdo as transgender,[2][3][4] making her as the first transgender videogame character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdo


I'd absolutely be Fuzzette.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

_ People worry too much about the "intolerant left" or whatever. Really, how often do you encounter someone who is not remotely understanding and will scream at you for using the deadname of someone who is a stranger to you both. You're honestly concerned that in your day to day life, someone will do anything beyond say "Actually, it's Elliot now" if you call him Ellen Page? I doubt it. I run in wildly progressive queer circles, and even then there's a pretty good understand and a pretty good ability to quickly tell the difference between a mistake/ignorance and something malicious (the "malicious" tell is usually what is said around the deadnaming, not deadnaming itself).

To this point only, I've found the biggest problem to be online. Face to face, the transgender folks and allies I know have no problem with someone slipping up and misgendering or deadnaming someone, as intent is generally easily readable through context.

But online...you screw it up online, and it's around forever and could cause some serious backlash who knows when/if it's found. Especially as intent and context are harder to parse than face to face.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

- People worry too much about the "intolerant left" or whatever. Really, how often do you encounter someone who is not remotely understanding and will scream at you for using the deadname of someone who is a stranger to you both. You're honestly concerned that in your day to day life, someone will do anything beyond say "Actually, it's Elliot now" if you call him Ellen Page? I doubt it. I run in wildly progressive queer circles, and even then there's a pretty good understand and a pretty good ability to quickly tell the difference between a mistake/ignorance and something malicious (the "malicious" tell is usually what is said around the deadnaming, not deadnaming itself).

I would think (and hope) that in real face to face life most people are pretty tolerant and would understand that deadnaming was likely just a slip of the tongue. Where it becomes more of an issue is the online realm I think.

How do you feel about some viewpoints that a deadname should be almost essentially erased from history? (I'm asking you because I'm coming from a place of wanting to learn and you're more well versed in that world than I am.) After Page's announcement, I read his Wikipedia bio because I wanted to know more about his life. On the Talk page (the section where editors discuss changes to the article) there are many people calling for the name Ellen Page to be removed completely from the article and indeed from all Wikipedia articles. I can't get on board with something like that - that essentially we're all supposed to pretend that there was never a person named Ellen Page who presented as a woman. In an encyclopedic context, it's just an indisputable cold, hard fact.

In the past I've also seen online anger over the film The Danish Girl for mentioning the protagonist's deadname multiple times, but isn't that kind of thing necessary in a biography?

I think it's wild overkill and I was pleased to read the Wikipedia article on deadnaming and learn that it's not a universally held viewpoint in the community.

[Locke]

I'm not going to lie...I'd never even heard of the concept of 'deadnaming' until the last page. No pun intended. Let alone that it was deemed offensive.

I mentioned this before, but I admit to a certain degree of lack of information in regards to the Trans community. I have no issues with them and would whole-heartedly be willing to treat them in the manner that they prefer.

But...I dont know all this stuff. It seems to change all the time.

[Wormius]

What changes all the time exactly?

[Nufy]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hm. I wonder why he decided to stick with the 'E?'

Ellen to Elliot?

You could literally pick any name you want. Its interesting.

Monogrammed towels...

They are expensive to replace...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Swift

I would think (and hope) that in real face to face life most people are pretty tolerant and would understand that deadnaming was likely just a slip of the tongue. Where it becomes more of an issue is the online realm I think.

How do you feel about some viewpoints that a deadname should be almost essentially erased from history? (I'm asking you because I'm coming from a place of wanting to learn and you're more well versed in that world than I am.) After Page's announcement, I read his Wikipedia bio because I wanted to know more about his life. On the Talk page (the section where editors discuss changes to the article) there are many people calling for the name Ellen Page to be removed completely from the article and indeed from all Wikipedia articles. I can't get on board with something like that - that essentially we're all supposed to pretend that there was never a person named Ellen Page who presented as a woman. In an encyclopedic context, it's just an indisputable cold, hard fact.

In the past I've also seen online anger over the film The Danish Girl for mentioning the protagonist's deadname multiple times, but isn't that kind of thing necessary in a biography?

I think it's wild overkill and I was pleased to read the Wikipedia article on deadnaming and learn that it's not a universally held viewpoint in the community.

To you and WhiteTiger's point, "online" is basically the disaster measure of anything. Online, especially in heavily disconnected places where nobody really knows each other and there are a whole lot of other issues going on (like Twitter), you're going to get extreme reactions to anything. People just react, they want to be part of the conversation, they need to be heard.

Real life, it ain't really like that. And I would just suggest people not worry much about what happens online (especially not if your social media presence isn't a big part of your world, if it is, then you already know to be cautious).

To answer your question, I know people in the community who have no problem referring to their old name when referring to a time they had that name, they recognize that represented who they were to some extent, they just are someone different now. So going back and removing all historical records as if "Ellen" never existed? That seems silly to me, but that's just me.

As a general rule, I would say call people what they want to be called, don't deadname people out of malice or some moral refusal but also don't worry if you say the wrong thing and be open to being corrected, and let whoever the person is guide things. The main issue I have with the people who are editing the Wikipedia article, for example, is that I doubt very much anyone asked Elliot how they prefer Ellen be treated in a historical context. And that's really the only thing that matters.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not going to lie...I'd never even heard of the concept of 'deadnaming' until the last page. No pun intended. Let alone that it was deemed offensive.

I mentioned this before, but I admit to a certain degree of lack of information in regards to the Trans community. I have no issues with them and would whole-heartedly be willing to treat them in the manner that they prefer.

But...I dont know all this stuff. It seems to change all the time.

It doesn't really change all the time, it's just likely you're hearing about each minor point through the media in the past few years. If I can work at a trucking company (the worst people on earth!) that had two seemingly straight white males suddenly transition to female with a fully supportive response from all the employees around them then everyone should be able to take the quick, easy steps to making their lives a little easier.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Look, nobody's perfect and more and more in this world we are expecting perfection. Be it racism, sexism, any type of ism. We all will slip up and we all will apologize, just don't shame us. I support all these movements and want people to be happy. Just don't shame me when I'm on your side and just made a mistake, I will no longer be on your side.

I hate to pile on to this response but this is honestly just **** Girly. These people attempt suicide at a 50% rate because they struggle so badly with who they are and how they're perceived in society, and how they are addressed is a major part of that.

I know it seems stupid to people who are out of that world and don't know anyone for real contact and experience with how they live, but the simple step of addressing them properly is monumental in their world. And the fact that you would pull that away over not even them but because non-trans liberals are overplaying their progressive hand is ugly and just so stupid.

It really shows that you weren't on their side or understanding of the issue of their condition to begin with. As no one with a heart would do that if they were entrenched with them or even had a basic understanding of what they go through.

[GirlySports]

You all make great points and this is the conversation I want to have. I want to be an ally. But I get shut down when I slip up. And for those who say this only happens online and not in real life, that's not true. We had someone at the office a few years back who transitioned from female to male during his time here, and it was really toxic. Immediately, we had people who really supported him and people who did not. But when the people who supported him slipped up, they got shamed moved the transphobe side until there as nobody left.



And this is one specific incident, but on issues like race and gender, from my experience, supporters can get shot down and accused very quickly for unintentional things which I find counter productive to an already marginalized group. Again, learn from each other, don't expect perfection.

[metallicat]

How much shame was there, actually? I've worked with trans people, and have friends dating trans people. I've misgendered before. I apologize and then move on. No shaming of me took place.

[Wormius]

Just treat people how you’d like to be treated. I don’t know how office culture becomes toxic like what GS is describing or the nature of these “slip ups”.

[Wormius]

Looks like they updated the cast information already on Page’s films. At least what I saw on Crave for “Juno” and “Inception”. That was a pretty fast response.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

You all make great points and this is the conversation I want to have. I want to be an ally. But I get shut down when I slip up. And for those who say this only happens online and not in real life, that's not true. We had someone at the office a few years back who transitioned from female to male during his time here, and it was really toxic. Immediately, we had people who really supported him and people who did not. But when the people who supported him slipped up, they got shamed moved the transphobe side until there as nobody left.

And this is one specific incident, but on issues like race and gender, from my experience, supporters can get shot down and accused very quickly for unintentional things which I find counter productive to an already marginalized group. Again, learn from each other, don't expect perfection.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this never happened, or you're not being entirely honest in your interpretation. Not because it's negative, but because it's unbelievable on both sides.

You're saying half your office was transphobic, and then over the course of a few slip-ups and in response to being shamed, your entire office became transphobic? How wretched was this one trans person to you all that you all decided "nah, all trans people are bad"? That seems crazy, but feel free to go into a little more detail.

And, again, because you kind of breezed right past this: being an "ally" should not be dependent on how well you are treated by an individual, it should be dependent on what you believe, and it should be reflected in your actions. You want to be an ally? Then be an ally, this isn't a difficult thing. Slip up? Apologize. Don't want to, or get shamed anyway? Cool, keep being an ally because you want to be an ally.

If we're talking about counterproductive, saying you want to support people but you can only support them if every single one of them is completely supportive of you first, or otherwise you're gonna be on the "transphobe" side, is... kinda ####ty.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And, again, because you kind of breezed right past this: being an "ally" should not be dependent on how well you are treated by an individual, it should be dependent on what you believe, and it should be reflected in your actions. You want to be an ally? Then be an ally, this isn't a difficult thing. Slip up? Apologize. Don't want to, or get shamed anyway? Cool, keep being an ally because you want to be an ally.

If we're talking about counterproductive, saying you want to support people but you can only support them if every single one of them is completely supportive of you first, or otherwise you're gonna be on the "transphobe" side, is... kinda ####ty.

A good analogy is actually Sliver's ranting about local shoppers dropping the "I want to support local, but...." followed by demands that you beat Amazon or they'll use Amazon. Cool, you were never wanting to support local, you were always going with best price and then as a final kick in the teeth put your decision on the businesses hurting from Amazon dominance.

[Bonded]

I feel like as long as you are not spouting stupid #### online then you will not run into this spectre of the intolerant left that will ruin your life and make you ashamed to live.
For the most part people aren't sitting there waiting for someone to make a mistake so they can scream in real life.



I hang out with a very white and straight group. There have been faux paus when an acquaintance we knew transitioned to being non-binary but they were not done maliciously and were handled with grace by the non-binary person. The only trouble we had was a religious guy who couldn't handle the idea and went a bit off the rails. I started hanging out with him less after it.

[MoneyGuy]

I recently paid about $100 more for a big-screen tv buying local at a smaller shop compared to if I’d bought from a competitor. I think this is important for the local economy.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I wonder when a trans person realizes they are trans?
I remember when he came out publicly as gay a few years back; would he have known at that time he wasn't identifying as a she or does that develop?

Not that it matters, but I find it curious to know if it was something he knew all along or they recently discovered?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I recently paid about $100 more for a big-screen tv buying local at a smaller shop compared to if I’d bought from a competitor. I think this is important for the local economy.

The analogy was that in both scenarios someone is saying they want to support you but then holding things over your head, like their support has a cost, meaning they don't actually support you.