[News] UPD: Coyotes renounce the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by cannon7

What if this was your child? Are you the kind of person who would just toss your child to the wolves because they did something awful?

Perhaps if it was your child you'd see things differently?

I would be personally ashamed of myself if this was my child because I failed horribly as a parent. I think counseling and getting to the root cause of these actions would become top priority and that may come at the expense of playing high level hockey. I would be investigating if it went further than this one victim and my top priority as a parent would be to socially adjust my child and ensure they realize the severity of their actions and understood what they did was heinous.

If there continued to be no remorse then they deserve to face the consequences of their actions.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

You're sure attributing a lot of intent to this young man absent of evidence. Neither of us know what he did or didn't do to make or attempt to make amends. We can take the victim's mother at her word while at the same time recognizing that it is only one side of the story. Doesn't make anything more or less "obvious" to an objective observer.

It's this kind of thinking that gets us into trouble. We think we know more than we do. We mistake our emotional response for righteousness.

"But there's nothing in the article that says he's continued the behavior that got him into juvenile hall. In fact, there's accounts of the opposite. But we can't claim to know what is in this young man's heart. Actions speak louder than words."

So where are the accounts of the opposite? Why can you positively attribute to him without much evidence, but when the victim and his family says he didn't apologize you can't take that at face value? Why is his word weighted more than his victim?

I think the only thing we agree on is actions speaking louder than words. He made no action to seek true forgiveness, so to me that speaks volumes.

[CliffFletcher]

Most expressions of remorse by young offenders are insincere boilerplate fed to them by lawyers and parents. You have to be pretty naive to put much stock in them.

Young offenders legislation is there because our justice system recognizes the diminished capacity of minors, and the public interest in ensuring they aren’t permanently stigmatized by their offences. I’m not sure why we should treat this case differently from thousands of other minors who carry out predatory criminal acts.

[afc wimbledon]

lets be clear here, we arent pondering whether this kid should be allowed to live a normal life here, we are pondering whether he should be given the prize of becoming a professional athlete, considered a role model and privileged position in society.

His behavior at 14 is totally relevant to whether 'we' put him on a pedestal.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

lets be clear here, we arent pondering whether this kid should be allowed to live a normal life here, we are pondering whether he should be given the prize of becoming a professional athlete, considered a role model and privileged position in society.

His behavior at 14 is totally relevant to whether 'we' put him on a pedestal.

This is the point I've been trying to make - though you did so more clearly than I have.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I don't even think many are pondering whether he should be given the prize of becoming a professional athlete. That's up to his own skill and private businesses willing to give him the opportunity. A couple people have spoken negatively about him being drafted by the Coyotes, but I don't think anyone has really sought a ban on him being in the NHL.

It's whether we, like his victim, think he's a terrible person and rooting against him is all. And when we sort of, kind of, root against some young adult because he was drafted by the Oilers, we surely can root against some guy who continually refused to apologize in person to someone who he regularly called racial names, beat up, and humiliated.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most expressions of remorse by young offenders are insincere boilerplate fed to them by lawyers and parents. You have to be pretty naive to put much stock in them.

I think that's just wrong. I'm not sure how good you think 14 year olds are at acting, but they believed the other 14 year old and not Miller for a reason.

If anything I would say the opposite is true where you can't really tell expressions of remorse by adult offenders. It's probably a lot easier the younger they are.

In any case, I think that opinion makes his actions worse. He couldn't even be bothered to fake remorse to let his victim believe he was sorry? Why? So his victim who has endured so much can't even receive the satisfaction? If so, that's just adding insult to injury.

But that's fine, I'm not talking about a 14 year old apologizing. I'm talking about an 18 year old not apologizing. Everyday he woke up and decided not to seek out his victim and try to make things better, he did this up until today. That was his decision as an adult, not as a 14 year old.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Now what if it was your child who was bully incessantly for a decade, including actual criminal acts, and his bully ended up earning millions of dollars and praise playing a sport he loves while refusing to even apologize? Would you be rooting for him?

I've already explained what I did with bullies. And I raised a developmentally challenged child.

The short answer is that the bullying didn't go on for seven years. It stopped the moment I was aware of it. And if it hadn't stopped I would have done everything in my power to ensure that it did.

That should've happened here. Either by a parent, a teacher, a principal, a super intendant -- you name it. The adults are the ones accountable. That should be the real story. Why was this bullying allowed to happen for so long?

[Oling_Roachinen]

How would you stop your kid from getting bullied? If you suggestion is that the victim's parents should have talked to the bully, I'm sure they did during the decade of bullying and at that point you're just victim blaming once again trying to pass blame onto someone else, in this case the parents of the victim?

And if you had to interfere so much to prevent your kid from getting bullied, are you going to seriously suggest that you would be cheering for the bully in the NHL? Puhlease.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I've already explained what I did with bullies. And I raised a developmentally challenged child.

The short answer is that the bullying didn't go on for seven years. It stopped the moment I was aware of it. And if it hadn't stopped I would have done everything in my power to ensure that it did.

That should've happened here. Either by a parent, a teacher, a principal, a super intendant -- you name it. The adults are the ones accountable. That should be the real story. Why was this bullying allowed to happen for so long?

Adults are among the accountable but the way you say that you are implying they have all the accountability. At 14 you are developed enough to understand the difference between right and wrong. While Miller is not solely accountable here he is not absolved because he is a minor and adults didn’t step in soon enough. He did the act and needs to own it but I do agree there are parents and teachers here that also own some accountability for their actions (or inaction)

[Oling_Roachinen]

Also the whole "let's not judge this person for something he absolutely did and refuses to try to amend as an adult" but "his parents are terrible" seems to be at best severely hypocritical.

Some people are just dicks and parenting isn't the cause. Probably relatively rare, but there's nothing to indicate that Miller's upbringing made him out to be this evil person who can't even apologize to his victim. There could be, but there's no evidence.

(Again, I disagree with those who say that the parents absolutely should have removed him from hockey).

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Adults are among the accountable but the way you say that you are implying they have all the accountability. At 14 you are developed enough to understand the difference between right and wrong. While Miller is not solely accountable here he is not absolved because he is a minor and adults didn’t step in soon enough. He did the act and needs to own it but I do agree there are parents and teachers here that also own some accountability for their actions (or inaction)

Scientific research doesn't support your assertion that 14 year olds have a. fully developed moral compass. Especially not adolescent males. And this moral compass is greatly affected by parenting, trauma and other factors.

Furthermore, as I mentioned before, there may be factors we're simply not aware. What if Miller was on the autism spectrum? That could explain both his difficulty expressing remorse and his difficulty determining right from wrong. If that were the case, does he still deserve this scorn?

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Also the whole "let's not judge this person for something he absolutely did and refuses to try to amend as an adult" but "his parents are terrible" seems to be at best severely hypocritical.

He was judged. By a magistrate. And subsequently punished for what he did. And rightly so.

You were saying?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Scientific research doesn't support your assertion that 14 year olds have a. fully developed moral compass. Especially not adolescent males. And this moral compass is greatly affected by parenting, trauma and other factors.

Furthermore, as I mentioned before, there may be factors we're simply not aware. What if Miller was on the autism spectrum? That could explain both his difficulty expressing remorse and his difficulty determining right from wrong. If that were the case, does he still deserve this scorn?

I agree you are not fully developed at 14 but you know the difference between right and wrong. You seem to be grasping at straws to find ways to remove accountability from this young man. If he was on the spectrum that knowledge would have been known already so that is a throw away assumption to once again try and deflect accountability from Miller. I think there is a better chance he is a psychopath who doesn’t feel remorse for his actions.

You could be right about there are factors that are not known but your wild speculation is complete fabrication at this point and we are discussing the facts that have been provided. Maybe other factors will come to light here and that will change my opinion but right now I see an extremely entitled young man who bullied the most vulnerable person in his path.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Regardless of how I may think of him, I don't think it's right to speculate on his mental capacity or health. And again, I think absent of any evidence this is just another excuse for him.

But as someone who advocates for those who had documented evidence from expert witnesses that they didn't have the mental capacity (Vince Li, Matthew De Grood, etc.), I know that there's a lot of people who don't care.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

He was judged. By a magistrate. And subsequently punished for what he did. And rightly so.

You were saying?

Yeah, and what did that magistrate say about him? (hint it wasn't good).

He was punished (with 25 hours of community service) for his criminal act of pissing on a lollipop, making his victim eat it, and smashing his face into a brick wall.

Now he's being condemned by people like me for refusing to apologize the following 4 years after the incident. No one is calling for additional criminal charges but each day he woke up and made the decision not to apologize. He did that as an adult a week ago, the day before that, the day before that, all the way back until 2016. He had ample time, he didn't take it, he didn't try to make amends and get a second shot, he shouldn't be guaranteed a clean slate if he won't do anything to clean it himself. I know you refuse to acknowledge it so you can blame his parents, the justice system, Ohio, his mental capacity, his victim's parents, and everyone else but him, but as an 18 year old adult, not a 14 year old, an 18 year adult, he made the conscience decision to apologize to NHL teams for his actions but not his victim. #### the adult him for that.

Also the whole "he was punished so we can't criticize him" does that mean you're rooting for Brock Turner on his swimming career? Keeping in mind that Brock too was under the age that neuroscientists believe we reach mental maturity (25).

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

His behavior at 14 is totally relevant to whether 'we' put him on a pedestal.

His behaviour at 14 is not supposed to be public knowledge. The guy who you work with every day, or the person teaching social studies to your kid, could have run someone over in a stolen car when he was 14 and you are not supposed to know about it. Nor are your employers or the school board.

I don’t see why those privacy provisions should be forfeited for people going into some lines of work and not others.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think there is a better chance he is a psychopath who doesn’t feel remorse for his actions.

I hope you realize that the diagnosis of psychopathy (a.k.a. antisocial personality disorder) is not made in persons under 18 years of age. It is normal for adolescents to exhibit some traits that would be considered evidence of psychopathy in an adult. And yes, the young man in question is 18 now, but the Maturity Fairy doesn't just drop a magic bomb on you on your 18th birthday; young men usually are not fully neurologically mature until their mid-twenties.

At present, what we probably have here is a rotten kid who may or may not grow up to be a rotten adult. The question is still open. Throwing around words like ‘psychopath’ does not help to answer it.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

How would you stop your kid from getting bullied? If you suggestion is that the victim's parents should have talked to the bully, I'm sure they did during the decade of bullying and at that point you're just victim blaming once again trying to pass blame onto someone else, in this case the parents of the victim?

Ah, victim blaming. Guess when my daughter was being bullied I should have thrown my hands in the air and cried "I'm a victim too!" Oh, wait. No. That's precisely what allows this bullying to continue.

This mother had many options. I don't claim to know which she pursued.

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

And if you had to interfere so much to prevent your kid from getting bullied, are you going to seriously suggest that you would be cheering for the bully in the NHL? Puhlease.

Who seriously suggested that?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

This mother had many options. I don't claim to know which she pursued.

But let's condemn her and his parents for it anyways!

I like that in the same paragraph you scoff at victim blaming and then go on to say that it's the victim's fault for giving the bully what they want.

To be honest, I didn't think you were super unreasonable to start. Just a bit generous with you're willingness to assume the good in people and provide second chances. Almost a sweet naivety to believe he was changed and is a great person now absent of any evidence of that (namely apologizing in earnest to his victim).

But now bending over backwards to blame everyone and everything but him, including bringing up a mental condition that no one has suggested about this person, seems to me that you're just cool with what he did and don't see it as a big deal.