[News] UPD: Coyotes renounce the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Seriously, go back and read what cannon7 said. It’s a perfectly reasonable post. But nope, gotta get on that high horse and attack him for defending the possibility that a child could change.

When someone makes a "it's just kids being kids" argument over **** like this, I can genuinely say that 14 year old me was not like that and would have hated this kid. Frankly, it makes question the character of the person making it. Were/are they a ######bag? Do they think because that's who they and their friends (because like attracts like) were/are that everyone's like that? Am I the odd one out? I'm glad to see that post get dunked on because it tells me that I'm not.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Do tell? I don’t k ow of Ralph England, or his past.

He was a big fan of the Nazis.

Engelstad was a controversial figure. He raised accusations of being sympathetic to Nazism owing to his collection of Nazi memorabilia stored in a private room, which he referred to as his "war room", within his Imperial Palace hotel-casino. After discovery of the memorabilia, Engelstad agreed to sell it rather than put it on display. In an apology letter to the Jewish Federation of Las Vegas, Engelstad said "I now feel I have done what I can and apologized for what I cannot do".[38] In addition to the memorabilia he stored on display in his "war room", a printing plate was found within his hotel that was used to make bumper stickers that read "Hitler Was Right".[38]

Hitler birthday parties[edit]
On April 20 in 1986 and 1988, he hosted parties to celebrate Adolf Hitler's birthday at his casino in Las Vegas [38][39] that featured bartenders in T-shirts reading "Adolf Hitler — European tour 1939-45". Because of this, in 1989, the Nevada Gaming Commission fined Engelstad $1.5 million "for actions that damaged the reputation and image of Nevada's gaming industry." Engelstad apologized publicly for the parties, saying they were "stupid, insensitive and held in bad taste", but the row was not to be his last controversial move.[38][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Engelstad

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The victim's mother says that his bullying had been going on since Grade 2. We're talking about a near decade. How is that not continued behaviour?

When he was caught and in trouble, again the victim's mother pointed out how he would pass their home because he couldn't go to school, seeing this as a form of intimidation.

And the magistrate chastised the guy for his terrible attitude during the case. Keeping in mind that the other accused was having heaps of praise lavished over him for the way he responded.

Plus the victim denies receiving the apology.

Look, I get redemption, I think it would be good if Mitchell did end up redeeming himself and learning and growing and I think we should probably give him that ability. But there's nothing to indicate that he has redeemed himself or that this was a single stupid mistake, unlike his accomplice. Your posts are pretty baseless.

So if this kid was allowed by his parents to bully this child from the age of 7 to 14 what kind of upbringing did the kid have that this was considered acceptable. It sounds like his parents and the education system failed both these kids. Kids are taught to be bullies, his bulling behaviour and personality likely served him well in many levels of hockey. His hockey skill likely allowed his behaviour to continue without anyone intervening.

A kid a 14 who ends up with a criminal record for this type of abuse is a product of a failed system. Did his parents encourage the behaviour or were they abusive?

[Oling_Roachinen]

How is that any different then Affluenza? At one point he has to be responsible for his actions, not his parents, and his victim doesn't believe he redeemed himself. That's on him, not his parents, at this point.

But again, I'm fine with second chances. My point was cannon7's post downplaying the severity and specifically his quote "In fact, there's accounts of the opposite." is in essence acting like he's already redeemed himself when the victim and his family are saying much differently.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Jesus man you don't get to decide who is a good person and who isn't based on one incident.

I have many, MANY friends that did stupid #### and ended up in juvenile detention that all turned out to be great people and family men. But one thing I know is I am extremely glad I never had a friend or acquaintance like you.

How can you realistically comment on the personality of a person from a story that only shows one side. Yes the kid got in trouble and seems to have not let them reoccur. He said he wrote an apology and the other family said it didn't receive it, who is right. Maybe with your great mind reading and ruling you could tell us the truth.

None of this post is relevant to any position I took or comment I made, and nobody cares who you would or wouldn’t like to be friends with, so I guess I don’t understand the point of this. Yes he might be a good person now? The onus is on him to prove it, nobody owes him a second chance or the benefit of the doubt. It’s on him. You earn it, period. And with his victim and apparently a decent number of NHL GMs, he’s yet to earn it.

No reason for you to question the truth of the victim.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I like how instead of compassion for the victim the focus is on vengeance against the bully with a complete disregard for what has occurred during the last 4 years.

I know how to get rid of bullies, let’s bully them!

This is a bit rich isn’t it? Considering you care so much about the victim you reserved exactly zero words for him. Spent a decent amount defending his bully, though.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by cannon7

He was a kid. As a father of a developmentally challenged child, I think its sick that society is pulling out pitchforks for something a 14 year old did. Do you remember being 14? Deny it all you want, but you did stupid things at 14. Some of the comments here are disgusting. I guarantee there are posters here who went through juvenile hall (or whatever the Canadian equivalent is), learned from it and are well-adjusted adults today. We can't afford an 18 year old the same opportunity? Sad.

This is a crock of ####. We have all been 14 before and I would say damn near 100% of us have never used racial slurs to bully a developmentally challenged kid. If this Miller kid showed remorse and apologized then I'd be on board with giving him the benefit of the doubt but he hasn't.

I hope he never sets foot on NHL ice and wastes a lot of his prime years trying to before either quitting hockey all together as a depressed 30 year old or has to live in butt#### nowhere russia just to have a chance to keep playing hockey.

#### this kid.

[Strange Brew]

When people choose to talk about the perpetrator in this case, they are not saying they don't care about the victim. Intelligent people can have a discussion about the severity and appropriateness of punishment for someone who has committed a crime.

When I read the information that is out there, it is not entirely clear what this kid has done in the intervening period to atone for his actions. And I don't know what would be enough to make me think he has changed either. It's clear the victim's mother has not forgiven him.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

When people choose to talk about the perpetrator in this case, they are not saying they don't care about the victim. Intelligent people can have a discussion about the severity and appropriateness of punishment for someone who has committed a crime.

When I read the information that is out there, it is not entirely clear what this kid has done in the intervening period to atone for his actions. And I don't know what would be enough to make me think he has changed either. It's clear the victim's mother has not forgiven him.

This kid went before a magistrate in a juvenile court and was likely held in a youth detention center. Let me assure you that this was likely the worst experience of his life. And deserved.

What tells you he has changed? He hasn't reoffended. Which is really the point. Or would you rather he apologize and continue to offend? This is where things break down for me. I take someone's actions over their words.

Whether or not the victim's mother or the victim have forgiven him or not is between them. He has been punished by the State of Ohio for his reprehensible behavior as a 14 year old.

Should he apologize to the victim? I'd certainly recommend it. But it may not be as simple as that. There may be civil liability he'd be exposing himself to now that this has turned into a media circus.

but who wants that? Certainly not our culture of outrage porn.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Xavier Gutierrez:

Given our priorities on diversity and inclusion, we believe that we are in the best position to guide Mitchell into becoming a leader for this cause and preventing bullying and racism now and in the future. As an organization, we have made our expectations very clear to him. We are willing to work with Mitchell and put in the time, effort, and energy and provide him with the necessary resources and platform to confront bullying and racism. This isn’t a story about excuses or justifications. It’s a story about reflection, growth, and community impact. A true leader finds ways for every person to contribute to the solution. We all need to be a part of the solution.

This is an amazing opportunity, that should have been earned based on the player doing these things on his own accord. It basically reads to me like he is being provided with the opportunity and platform to be transformed into a leader BECAUSE of his past experience being a decade long bully.

I agree with the premise that a past bully, that matures and comes to these realizations on their own accord without the benefit of having an ample reward at the end of the road, could become a really good spokesperson for this topic. Someone who can share how he became that way, why he didn't see the warning signs, understanding the damage he created in hindsight, and how to repair one's life. That makes sense.

Just doesn't feel like this particular person has demonstrated the leadership skills to be that spokesperson, or earned the opportunity himself. He's getting the opportunity because he represented a "good value" at the draft slot he fell to.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by SebC

When someone makes a "it's just kids being kids" argument over **** like this, I can genuinely say that 14 year old me was not like that and would have hated this kid. Frankly, it makes question the character of the person making it. Were/are they a ######bag? Do they think because that's who they and their friends (because like attracts like) were/are that everyone's like that? Am I the odd one out? I'm glad to see that post get dunked on because it tells me that I'm not.

I guarantee that if I dug into your past that I could find something you said or did that you were ashamed of. Why? Because that's a part of growing up. It doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you human.

But let's say you're morally superior to the rest of us. Congratulations. Perhaps you could be more understanding and empathetic of the rest of us who aren't perfect like you? Oh shoot. There goes that moral superiority...turns out understanding and empathy are moral virtues. Go figure.

[sureLoss]

I do wonder if the Coyotes would have even consider drafting him if they had picks in the early rounds. Or if they only decided to draft him because of the value it presented them with the lack of picks.

The stories you hear about Do Not Draft lists make it sound like players end up on them for much less than Miller has done.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

How is that any different then Affluenza? At one point he has to be responsible for his actions, not his parents, and his victim doesn't believe he redeemed himself. That's on him, not his parents, at this point.

But again, I'm fine with second chances. My point was cannon7's post downplaying the severity and specifically his quote "In fact, there's accounts of the opposite." is in essence acting like he's already redeemed himself when the victim and his family are saying much differently.

He hasn't reoffended in four years. How many years is enough for you? Or is he a juvenile offender for life?

Acknowledging the human condition is not downplaying, it's reality. We don't come into this world as fully formed perfect beings. Nor do we leave it as such.

To expect a 14 year old to know better, knowing nothing of his upbringing is not only unrealistic -- it's completely lacking in common sense.

I'm not excusing his behavior. And he was punished for it. But apparently society wants more blood for the sins of a child.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I do wonder if the Coyotes would have even consider drafting him if they had picks in the early rounds. Or if they only decided to draft him because of the value it presented them with the lack of picks.

The stories you hear about Do Not Draft lists make it sound like players end up on them for much less than Miller has done.

The ghost of Chayka keeps giving and giving

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I guarantee that if I dug into your past that I could find something you said or did that you were ashamed of. Why? Because that's a part of growing up. It doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you human.

But let's say you're morally superior to the rest of us. Congratulations. Perhaps you could be more understanding and empathetic of the rest of us who aren't perfect like you? Oh shoot. There goes that moral superiority...turns out understanding and empathy are moral virtues. Go figure.

You probably could. And it's unlikely you'd find with most people a history of seven straight years of intimidation, assault, and racism.

This is the issue I have with your posts. Not that this kid is beyond saving, because he's not. Not that this is his fault alone, because his parents share blame. Not that he might have changed, because he might have, but again the burden of proof is on him, and when neither the victim and his family or NHL GMs trust that he's shown the proof, those are red flags that shouldn't just be ignored. The issue, is that you keep saying this is "part of growing up" and that it doesn't make someone a bad person, just a human. But that's wrong. Bullying someone for seven years and doing the things he did makes him a bad person. This is not a typical part of growing up. Maybe you were a bully like him when you were younger and you changed, good for you, but bullies are ####ty people, being one is not just "part of growing up."

And this mindless need to play the victim here, about how anyone being critical of a bully is pretending to be morally superior. Get over it already. Nobody is perfect, but most people can not include what this kid did in their history. This is not typical. It is not to be lumped in with all the things one might be ashamed of.

This kid just got drafted to the NHL, safe to say, he's going to be just fine if he changed. If he didn't, it's on him. But to just wave blanket forgiveness with the red flags present? I don't know. How many people jumped to the "just a kid" defence of the kid who shot out the window of his car and hit a German tourist? I saw a whole lot more from the "put him away for good" and outrage over his sentence being light because he was a kid, than I do for a kid who tortured someone for seven straight years.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Xavier Gutierrez:




This is an amazing opportunity, that should have been earned based on the player doing these things on his own accord. It basically reads to me like he is being provided with the opportunity and platform to be transformed into a leader BECAUSE of his past experience being a decade long bully.

I agree with the premise that a past bully, that matures and comes to these realizations on their own accord without the benefit of having an ample reward at the end of the road, could become a really good spokesperson for this topic. Someone who can share how he became that way, why he didn't see the warning signs, understanding the damage he created in hindsight, and how to repair one's life. That makes sense.

Just doesn't feel like this particular person has demonstrated the leadership skills to be that spokesperson, or earned the opportunity himself. He's getting the opportunity because he represented a "good value" at the draft slot he fell to.

In all fairness, he's not going to get this opportunity unless he earns it through his on ice play (ie makes the NHL). The Coyotes are basically saying that if he's good enough to make the NHL, they'll make him repent for his actions via on-going, off-ice community service.

But that's really something all NHL players are expected to do (off-ice community service) as part of being ambassadors for the game. So it's really a non-event.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

In all fairness, he's not going to get this opportunity unless he earns it through his on ice play (ie makes the NHL). The Coyotes are basically saying that if he's good enough to make the NHL, they'll make him repent for his actions via on-going, off-ice community service.

But that's really something all NHL players are expected to do (off-ice community service) as part of being ambassadors for the game. So it's really a non-event.

This isn't really true. There may be a desire to have players do this, but the degree to which it happens is largely up to them. There isn't anything included in contracts or anything that mandates this.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

This kid went before a magistrate in a juvenile court and was likely held in a youth detention center. Let me assure you that this was likely the worst experience of his life. And deserved.

He showed a funny way of showing how impacted he was. The magistrate tore him a new one for his attitude. This should be used as an example of him not changing, even after confronted with his heinous actions he showed disrespect not just to the victim but the court. And then as recently as the draft GM's aware of his actions thought poorly of him as well.

Originally Posted by cannon7

What tells you he has changed? He hasn't reoffended. Which is really the point. Or would you rather he apologize and continue to offend? This is where things break down for me. I take someone's actions over their words.

Not making another Black person eat food from a urinal shouldn't be the bar we have for redemption. He doesn't get the benefit anymore, it's on him to show he has changed and when one of the preparators was able to convince the victim and his family while this guy hasn't, that should be evidence that the family was willing to forgive but he didn't care for it.

Originally Posted by cannon7

Whether or not the victim's mother or the victim have forgiven him or not is between them. He has been punished by the State of Ohio for his reprehensible behavior as a 14 year old.

Sure it's between them, but it's also between us on how we want to view him obviously, and that's all that's being discussed. Nobody is saying put him back in jail, at worst it seems some people are rooting against him making the NHL (without having any actual impact).

Originally Posted by cannon7

Should he apologize to the victim? I'd certainly recommend it. But it may not be as simple as that. There may be civil liability he'd be exposing himself to now that this has turned into a media circus.

Ah yes, he's changed so much for the better....as long as there's no inconvenience for him lol. (Even though he said he apologized).

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I guarantee that if I dug into your past that I could find something you said or did that you were ashamed of. Why? Because that's a part of growing up. It doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you human.

But let's say you're morally superior to the rest of us. Congratulations. Perhaps you could be more understanding and empathetic of the rest of us who aren't perfect like you? Oh shoot. There goes that moral superiority...turns out understanding and empathy are moral virtues. Go figure.

You do understand there's levels of severity right? Yah, I'm sure we've all done stupid things as a teenager in the past, but I can guarantee 99% of us have never verbally and physically assaulted someone for 7 years. The "stupid things" this kid did is way way beyond normal teenager behavior. I'm honesty quite offended you'd lump them in the same category.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I'm not excusing his behavior.

Well yeah you are in my opinion. By continuously focusing on his one event while ignoring everything else, you are. As you are by suggesting we all did stupid things when we were young, I'd say very few of us did something as terrible as he did.

Yes, he got punished for making a disabled Black person eat a urinal snack while being racist. He served his time, which apparently means Brock Turner should be forgiven too. But then he showed disrespect to the court, intimidated his victim by appearing at his home, did not apologize (in dispute, but let's take the victim's word for now), and was allegedly not forthright about the incident very recently. Those are all continuous actions, everyday since he was 14 he has made the decision not to apologize and earn redemption from his victim.

Yet you somehow believe he turned a corner.

Again, I have no problem with second chances but they are earned not given. If he can't even apologize, why should he be given a second chance?

[Teroy]

My goodness people, the kid was 14. He made a mistake but he deserves a second chance. The comments from some of you are disturbing.