Universal Basic Income/Andrew Yang Discussion

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Helicopter parents are not going to admit that their kids are not performing well and having them be diverted. They'll just throw more money at the problem. I'm a parent and pretty laid back i think. The parents at my kid's school are insane.

I don't disagree. Like I said before a major problem is the way our society now views people without a degree, as lesser. It's very ironic that we have supposedly leftist kids and parents swarming towards universities for the sole purpose of proving they are better than the "working class".

Society needs an attitude shift. We should be encouraging children to pursue their talents, even if they don't fit the conservative model of what a talent is.

[bizaro86]

If we are just going to wave our hands and say we can cut 75%+ of government spending then with that stipulated I agree its possible. I took specific line items out of the federal budget that I think could be cut. Which other ones do you think? Because you mention infrastructure, health, education, and the military as the things you'd keep, and those cost way more than what you have allowed for.

I probably wouldn't have made the crack about the Panama papers if I had known that was your video. But there was a lot of going on about how rich people can pay more and we can find efficiencies. Those are (somewhat ironically) the well intentioned but impractical go-to plans of the left and right respectively. It seems unlikely to me that we'd be able to get both to work.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GGG

Edit: I watched your video. You could have just mentioned the MIT study. It entirely supports what I am saying. Once you take away people’s need to work they will focus on mastery. And many will focus on mastering things that add no value. Tinkering with automobiles, learning to play instruments, learning a language, hiking, etc. Mastering hobbies that produce no goods for society. A few will produce great things, many will not.

It sounds like you cherrypicked what you wanted to pay attention to, and ignored the rest of the video.

The video said autonomy, mastery, and purpose... not just mastery. It also talked about how people tend to operate at their best when they aren't thinking about money and stressing out over their finances.

What's more, a person spending all their days on hobbies is actually doing more good for society than a person who is getting involved in criminal activities. Like Carlin said, "You show me a lazy prick who's lying in bed all day, watching TV, only occasionally getting up to piss, and I'll show you a guy who's not causing any trouble."

The key take away the video misses is there is a threshold of reward that produces optimal work. That threshold is above zero

UBI is capitalism that doesn't start at zero. People are still free to interact in the marketplace, to exchange their services for monetary rewards.

Originally Posted by bizaro86

If we are just going to wave our hands and say we can cut 75%+ of government spending then with that stipulated I agree its possible. I took specific line items out of the federal budget that I think could be cut. Which other ones do you think? Because you mention infrastructure, health, education, and the military as the things you'd keep, and those cost way more than what you have allowed for.

I probably wouldn't have made the crack about the Panama papers if I had known that was your video. But there was a lot of going on about how rich people can pay more and we can find efficiencies. Those are (somewhat ironically) the well intentioned but impractical go-to plans of the left and right respectively. It seems unlikely to me that we'd be able to get both to work.

We'd keep a slimmed down version of all of those. For example, I think it would be a good idea to introduce some component of partial user payment to bring down public health care costs. We need a complete overhaul and rethink regarding education, because it's very wasteful in its current form, and doesn't accomplish its purported goals very well. Infrastructure spending can be severely reduced from its current levels.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

It sounds like you cherrypicked what you wanted to pay attention to, and ignored the rest of the video.

The video said autonomy, mastery, and purpose... not just mastery. It also talked about how people tend to operate at their best when they aren't thinking about money and stressing out over their finances.

What's more, a person spending all their days on hobbies is actually doing more good for society than a person who is getting involved in criminal activities. Like Carlin said, "You show me a lazy prick who's lying in bed all day, watching TV, only occasionally getting up to piss, and I'll show you a guy who's not causing any trouble."


UBI is capitalism that doesn't start at zero. People are still free to interact in the marketplace, to exchange their services for monetary rewards.


We'd keep a slimmed down version of all of those. For example, I think it would be a good idea to introduce some component of partial user payment to bring down public health care costs. We need a complete overhaul and rethink regarding education, because it's very wasteful in its current form, and doesn't accomplish its purported goals very well. Infrastructure spending can be severely reduced from its current levels.

I think if anyone tried to get elected on a platform that included UBI, higher taxes, and health care user fees they would quickly learn that isn't politically viable.

[Stillman16]

Maybe you don’t agree that we are seeing jobs disappear, but the stats back it up, unemployment is rising.

I guess you think the rich have a better work ethic, since, because they have money they could just retire, but don’t, while given financial security, the average person would sit at home and do nothing (or just hobbies)!

So we’re all just lazy, and need the threat of homelessness to incentivize us to work!

If you retire early, say at 35, how long till you get bored? Wouldn’t you want to travel? Buy toys (ATV, ski, boat, etc)?

I guess I just don’t think people are as lazy as you believe....I also think most will continue to work, while feeling less trapped, and more empowered.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think if anyone tried to get elected on a platform that included UBI, higher taxes, and health care user fees they would quickly learn that isn't politically viable.

Maybe.

But I always point to slavery abolition, women's suffrage, and LGBTQ rights as examples of things that once seemed pie-in-the-sky, and were scoffed at by most people...

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Does losing jobs to automation create automation-centric jobs? Due to automation, the quality of our work has increased, the quality of the intellect involved in our work has increased. I'd get into data and statistics today if I were 15.

It certainly does create new jobs and increases jobs in these new growth areas. The firm I work for has increased training in Automation and related areas (AI, DevOps to support Automation, etc.) for everyone and did this about 6-7 years ago and it hasn't slowed down. As long as the trained and educated keep up with the changing times, they'll be fine (this is nothing new or unique for these times). It's those who aren't and who aren't in a life stage where getting re-educated/re-trained comes as easily, that these changing times will hurt (also not unique to these times).

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by GGG

That would imply insufficient supply of housing.

Of course, when in mankind's history has there been sufficient housing for the poor?

[Flashpoint]

Yeah... not seeing rent contol being legislated by any US politician.

I also don’t see banks saying “everyone gets a mortgage!” as a result of UBI. The vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The moment the government anounced what amount each American family was taking in, you would immediately see a response from business to remove that money. Rent being the primary way to do it.

UBI doesnt resolve poverty because it doesnt resolve why poverty exists in the first place - dedicated systems to move wealth from the poor to the rich.

You make sure healthcare is tied ti employment, that only private education is worthwhile, and you ensure the class system stays in place.

Throwing a $1000 at it results in another $1000 going to Walmart, McDonalds, and the landlord. It doesnt allow you to educate your children, or pay for medical care. Its not enough to change the dynamic.

What would reduce poverty? Universal single payer healthcare and education.

Good luck with that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Basically, I don't see how UBI works without buy-in from large corporations, but I also don't see how it is realistically possible to make them pay for it. So, I doubt it happens unless we have to because the world economy is cratering without a healthy consumer base.

Agreed. Corporations would need to subsidize a UBI directly, something which is hard to imagine.

I actually think it's more likely that we'll see corporations move to a subscriber model for everything, similar to how telecoms work. So you'll sign a two-year contract with Amazon Corp or Google Corp or whoever to provide all of their goods and services at a heavily discounted rate. Consumers get their lifestyles subsidized, and corporations get to lock in market share and data collection. This will become more feasible as most commerce, including groceries, restaurants, etc. shifts to digital.

That would leave government to foot the subsidy for rent/real estate, which would cost a lot less than a full UBI.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Yeah... not seeing rent contol being legislated by any US politician.

I also don’t see banks saying “everyone gets a mortgage!” as a result of UBI. The vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The moment the government anounced what amount each American family was taking in, you would immediately see a response from business to remove that money. Rent being the primary way to do it.

UBI doesnt resolve poverty because it doesnt resolve why poverty exists in the first place - dedicated systems to move wealth from the poor to the rich.

You make sure healthcare is tied ti employment, that only private education is worthwhile, and you ensure the class system stays in place.

Throwing a $1000 at it results in another $1000 going to Walmart, McDonalds, and the landlord. It doesnt allow you to educate your children, or pay for medical care. Its not enough to change the dynamic.

What would reduce poverty? Universal single payer healthcare and education.

Good luck with that.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive you know. One might even argue the opposite, that moving towards any one of those helps move towards all of those, and that these are all things that support each other.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree with this.

The major problem in North America is lack of centralized control over the education system. The idea that we the government funding higher education (they pay something like 90% of actual tuition costs) and most programs have near unlimited amounts of spots is absurd.

If you actually look at the education systems of places like Germany and Scandinavian countries, where post-secondary education is totally free, they also strictly control how many students are allowed to enroll in each program. And no, you cannot circumvent this by going private, as the government also controls what universities get accredited as universities.

Germany and Scandinavia also divert children who are not performing well into trades programs during high school. Canada is starting to do this, and it makes sense. Instead of demoralizing a child by forcing them to repeat remedial math multiple times, why not give them actual skills.

Canada, overall, also needs an attitude shift. We need to stop telling kids that university is a part of your growth as a person. This is just marketing. Post-secondary education, of any kind, needs to be viewed as training for a job.

To me the biggest issue is the attitude. I have friends in Germany, and it is interesting how trades are looked upon as a great career. All the big German manufacturers have programs in place to get these kids into vocational programs when they are 15 already.

Here in Canada we think kids taking a 'year off' before going to post secondary is great. Why? We need to get kids into programs sooner, not later.

Teacher attitudes are the worst to me. I don't think a single teacher I had advocated for trade schools, and many of the kids that did end up going to trade school have great careers.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Azure

To me the biggest issue is the attitude. I have friends in Germany, and it is interesting how trades are looked upon as a great career. All the big German manufacturers have programs in place to get these kids into vocational programs when they are 15 already.

Here in Canada we think kids taking a 'year off' before going to post secondary is great. Why? We need to get kids into programs sooner, not later.

Teacher attitudes are the worst to me. I don't think a single teacher I had advocated for trade schools, and many of the kids that did end up going to trade school have great careers.

Just the fact that universities and colleges are now called 'higher ed' tells you all you need to know about where society is. In election polling, a high school diploma now falls under the 'uneducated' category.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Of course, when in mankind's history has there been sufficient housing for the poor?

Generally that’s because they don’t have any money to pay for housing and cities zone to keep them from having available housing. So there is no demand to produce housing for them.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm all for UBI, one program for all social programs. like OAS, disability, unemployment, maternity, one application one max amount.


Then we can fire half of the civil servants since we'd only need one department with a few people.


Great way to shrink the government.


Though I honestly don't believe in UBI from the term of a person that has the capability to work not working and being a sponge.



I'm all for a limited UBI where we consolidate all social programs that support people that can't work or are unemployed due to no fault of their own if it shrinks the cost of governments day to day operations.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by blankall

Germany and Scandinavia also divert children who are not performing well into trades programs during high school. Canada is starting to do this, and it makes sense. Instead of demoralizing a child by forcing them to repeat remedial math multiple times, why not give them actual skills.

The attitude that it is the low performers who should go into trades is the problem. I'm a university educated professional (P.Eng) and have huge respect for the trades. Those are often good, stable jobs held by smart people who make important decisions and do interesting work. In a previous job I worked with an instrumentation tech who was smarter than me and made more money than me. But I had way more social standing within the company and in society in general as a professional. Which is stupid.

We need more tradespeople way more than we need graduates of many different university programs.

If trades weren't looked down upon by so many they would be considered a more viable career choice for young people. Maybe then we'd have the high end manufacturing reputation of Germany.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The attitude that it is the low performers who should go into trades is the problem. I'm a university educated professional (P.Eng) and have huge respect for the trades. Those are often good, stable jobs held by smart people who make important decisions and do interesting work. In a previous job I worked with an instrumentation tech who was smarter than me and made more money than me. But I had way more social standing within the company and in society in general as a professional. Which is stupid.

We need more tradespeople way more than we need graduates of many different university programs.

If trades weren't looked down upon by so many they would be considered a more viable career choice for young people. Maybe then we'd have the high end manufacturing reputation of Germany.

This is actually more important than people realize.

Just with PPE, finding companies to make this stuff within Canada is a massive challenge simply due to the fact that there is no talent available that can do this stuff.

The province of Manitoba is desperately looking for companies to make a silicone reusable face mask that can hold a n95 filter, and they are willing to advance up to $15 million dollars and offer 20-30 year contracts to make the masks.

There are no takers because companies can't find the talent to figure out the manufacturing process.

Its insane how ##### our post secondary programs are when it comes to churning out talent to fill actual jobs. And then people complain how the automation will take away jobs. Insane.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Azure

To me the biggest issue is the attitude. I have friends in Germany, and it is interesting how trades are looked upon as a great career. All the big German manufacturers have programs in place to get these kids into vocational programs when they are 15 already.

Here in Canada we think kids taking a 'year off' before going to post secondary is great. Why? We need to get kids into programs sooner, not later.

Teacher attitudes are the worst to me. I don't think a single teacher I had advocated for trade schools, and many of the kids that did end up going to trade school have great careers.

They also stream earlier, with children being channeled into vocational and university streams at age 10. Something which runs counter to the trend in Canada towards flattened models of education.

Basically, Germany has a pragmatic approach to these things, while Canadian policy is constrained by ideological and emotional narratives we like to tell ourselves.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They also stream earlier, with children being channeled into vocational and university streams at age 10. Something which runs counter to the trend in Canada towards flattened models of teaching.

Basically, Germany has a pragmatic approach to these things, while Canadian policy is constrained by ideological and emotional narratives we like to tell ourselves.

I actually toured some factories in Germany that had separate buildings up setup where 15 year old kids were learning how to run CNC equipment. I talked with some of them and it was amazing how fulfilled they felt with their work.

I was actually blown away by how happy and joyful those places looked. It was clear even the instructors & teachers were having an amazing time, and the attitude of everyone was amazing.

I walked out feeling depressed however, knowing that Canadian kids are being screwed over by our incompetent government and education system.

In a 2018 survey by ManpowerGroup, 41 per cent of Canadian employers reported difficulty filling jobs. The survey also found that the most in-demand jobs require post-secondary training, but not necessarily a university degree.

Skilled trade workers such as welders, mechanics or electricians have been among the top five hardest roles to fill in Canada for the last ten years. Sales representatives, drivers, engineers and technicians are also on the list.

“We need more foundational work to understand what a skill is and how that complements education,” said Tobin.

In response to the skilled workers shortage, the federal parties have said they will implement programs to help train foreign workers facing barriers in employment.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada...s%20investment.

Maybe before we talk about UBI, we should be doing more to fill these jobs?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't disagree. Like I said before a major problem is the way our society now views people without a degree, as lesser. It's very ironic that we have supposedly leftist kids and parents swarming towards universities for the sole purpose of proving they are better than the "working class".

And then the parents get upset that their child who spent 6 years getting a Masters in Sociology works in a call center. The twin myths that A) you need a university to degree to get a good job, and B) a university degree should guarantee a good job both need to die.