WCF - Vegas Golden Knights (1) vs. Dallas Stars (3) - Stars Win Series 4-1

[CalgaryFan1988]

Watching the highlights, Vegas need to lift the puck.

[dino7c]

FFS I missed it

[browna]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I don't think games against a non-playoff team should count.

JG had 4 points in 6 games against the Stars. Not terrible when looked at by itself, but let's remember he's had a history of not raising his game in the playoffs when his team has needed him to.

Seguin is overrated and overpaid, that part I agree with.

Point being, and, Benn was no better stats wise after the Flames series than Seguin, that if this was Dallaspuck.com and Dallas didn’t get past the Flames (which was well within the realm no matter what the already revisionist historians would have you believe) it would be a bloodbath for both Seguin and Benn to be putting up tepid stats while eating up $19M of cap space per years for a long long time, compared to the grief that JG and SM are getting.

Not a great goal OT goal by Lehner. Sure it’s almost always going to be an attempt pad height blocker side, but he looked awkward, and didn’t look anywhere near set and ready, though he has the time and should’ve been.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dino7c

that can't be a goal IMO

I'm curious why you feel this way - do you think that ANY contact with the goalie should result in no goal?

IMO, too many goals are called back. I think that they should only be called off if there is clear, direct contact, initiated by the skater toward the goalie. If the player and the defender are fighting for space, and they happen to marginally nudge the goalie without any direct intent - and especially if that happens outside the crease - then it should count.

Waving off goals sucks for fans. And it's so marginal and unpredictable. I would like to see this largely removed - blatant contact/interference, or don't worry about it

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by browna

Point being, and, Benn was no better stats wise after the Flames series than Seguin, that if this was Dallaspuck.com and Dallas didn’t get past the Flames (which was well within the realm no matter what the already revisionist historians would have you believe) it would be a bloodbath for both Seguin and Benn to be putting up tepid stats while eating up $19M of cap space per years for a long long time, compared to the grief that JG and SM are getting.

Not a great goal OT goal by Lehner. Sure it’s almost always going to be an attempt pad height blocker side, but he looked awkward, and didn’t look anywhere near set and ready, though he has the time and should’ve been.

In the playoffs, Seguin is a career +8 and Benn is a career +3.
By comparison, Johnny is a career -8 and Mony is a career -6.

Similar situations, but not quite the same.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

In the playoffs, Seguin is a career +8 and Benn is a career +3.
By comparison, Johnny is a career -8 and Mony is a career -6.

Similar situations, but not quite the same.

Why are we talking +/-? Monahan and Gaudreau get time on the PP but don't get time on the PK, so that's exactly what you would expect. At least use some more advanced stats than +/- to support your argument.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Why are we talking +/-? Monahan and Gaudreau get time on the PP but don't get time on the PK, so that's exactly what you would expect. At least use some more advanced stats than +/- to support your argument.

I don't necessarily disagree with the +/- criticism, but what do you mean by "(they) get time on the PP but don't get time on the PK, so that's exactly what you would expect".

Neither really have an impact on +/- unless you're allowing shorthanded goals or scoring them.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Why are we talking +/-? Monahan and Gaudreau get time on the PP but don't get time on the PK, so that's exactly what you would expect. At least use some more advanced stats than +/- to support your argument.

Powerplay and penalty kill do not impact the +/- at all though.

Dallas has been more successful in the post season (more wins = more goals/points for top minute munchers than goals/points against usually), that will impact the +/-.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Why are we talking +/-? Monahan and Gaudreau get time on the PP but don't get time on the PK, so that's exactly what you would expect. At least use some more advanced stats than +/- to support your argument.

It shows that they are worse 5-on-5 than Benn & Seguin...

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

What a great pass from Pavelski though, to hit him just so, and yeah, wow, what a shot. Lehner knew it was in as soon as it "pinged".

Most times it doesn't work out when you sign older vets like this to multi-year deals for big money but Pavelski has been a difference maker for them in the playoffs. I still feel the Flames should have beat these guys so at least it does put into perspective that the Flames aren't that far off.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by agulati

Powerplay and penalty kill do not impact the +/- at all though.

Dallas has been more successful in the post season (more wins = more goals/points for top minute munchers than goals/points against usually), that will impact the +/-.

They certainly do. SHG for is a +, PPG for is nothing. SHG against is a -, PPG against is nothing. So an otherwise neutral player will almost always be a + player if he only plays on the PK and a - player if he only plays PP, unless of course there are zero SHGs.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

It shows that they are worse 5-on-5 than Benn & Seguin...

No, because +/- counts SHGs but not PPGs, which preferentially benefits players on the PK. If a player (just for the sake of argument) played only on the PP but not on ES or PK, they could at best be a 0, but would almost certainly be a -. Conversely, a player who only played PK but never ES or PP could at worst be a 0 but would almost certainly be a +. Now, if +/- did not count PPGs or SHGs, then your statement would be correct, but that is not the case for that particular stat, which is why I originally questioned its use.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Most times it doesn't work out when you sign older vets like this to multi-year deals for big money but Pavelski has been a difference maker for them in the playoffs. I still feel the Flames should have beat these guys so at least it does put into perspective that the Flames aren't that far off.

Dallas never got the credit they deserved in the series when we played them. They definitively have hit pay dirt with the vets they signed. I didn't think they would have enough tread left to be as big as factors as they have been. Pavelski is a big reason they got out of the first round. I know fans typically scoff at GMs for bringing in a vet with experience, but it hard to argue with the results.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

They certainly do. SHG for is a +, PPG for is nothing. SHG against is a -, PPG against is nothing. So an otherwise neutral player will almost always be a + player if he only plays on the PK and a - player if he only plays PP, unless of course there are zero SHGs.

No, because +/- counts SHGs but not PPGs, which preferentially benefits players on the PK. If a player (just for the sake of argument) played only on the PP but not on ES or PK, they could at best be a 0, but would almost certainly be a -. Conversely, a player who only played PK but never ES or PP could at worst be a 0 but would almost certainly be a +. Now, if +/- did not count PPGs or SHGs, then your statement would be correct, but that is not the case for that particular stat, which is why I originally questioned its use.

OK, strip out SHG for all 4 players. I suspect the impact is negligible.

[Flamenspiel]

I think Dallas can win, also to certain extent they may have exposed some of the Vegas teams weaknesses. In particular, their top end may not be as good as the other two contenders.

Up till now I thought they had the edge in goaltending but it looks like Lehner may be getting tired, or injured. That changes this series significantly.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think Dallas can win, also to certain extent they may have exposed some of the Vegas teams weaknesses. In particular, their top end may not be as good as the other two contenders.

Up till now I thought they had the edge in goaltending but it looks like Lehner may be getting tired, or injured. That changes this series significantly.

I think Khudobin was quite underrated by everyone going in.

I agree that Vegas doesn’t have the top end forwards of a lot of other teams, especially down the middle (which is why I thought their quick transition/counterpunch style might be one for Calgary to emulate).

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Dallas never got the credit they deserved in the series when we played them. They definitively have hit pay dirt with the vets they signed. I didn't think they would have enough tread left to be as big as factors as they have been. Pavelski is a big reason they got out of the first round. I know fans typically scoff at GMs for bringing in a vet with experience, but it hard to argue with the results.

Pavelski has been huge for them.

Cogliano and Comeau have been good too. Never mind the meltdown this place would experience if the Flames brought in Pavelski, imagine the meltdown if they signed a 32yo Comeau for $2.4M and a 31yo Cogliano for $3.25.

The word meltdown does not cover it.

And yet here we are, watching a team with an aging core that 'couldn't win' be supplemented with more aging vets, and they are 2 games away from the finals.

Yes they have a couple really good young players as well (every team does), but the meat of this team is aging vets.

14 of their players are 28 or older. 10 of them are in their 30s.

It's unpossible.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Khudobin was quite underrated by everyone going in.



I agree that Vegas doesn’t have the top end forwards of a lot of other teams, especially down the middle (which is why I thought their quick transition/counterpunch style might be one for Calgary to emulate).

Khudobin is also a UFA this offseason. I doubt he will be among the big draws like Markstrom and Lehner, but he could be a really astute pickup, and possibly at an affordable cost and term.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Khudobin is also a UFA this offseason. I doubt he will be among the big draws like Markstrom and Lehner, but he could be a really astute pickup, and possibly at an affordable cost and term.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I thought Khudobin would have been a good pickup years ago as a UFA, but now he's 34....

Decent backup option and the price would probably be reasonable.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Pavelski has been huge for them.

Cogliano and Comeau have been good too. Never mind the meltdown this place would experience if the Flames brought in Pavelski, imagine the meltdown if they signed a 32yo Comeau for $2.4M and a 31yo Cogliano for $3.25.

The word meltdown does not cover it.

And yet here we are, watching a team with an aging core that 'couldn't win' be supplemented with more aging vets, and they are 2 games away from the finals.

Yes they have a couple really good young players as well (every team does), but the meat of this team is aging vets.

14 of their players are 28 or older. 10 of them are in their 30s.

It's unpossible.

Still they have to win this year because they aren't set up for long term success so it's win now at all costs then dealing with the fallout as opposed to building an annual contender such as the Lightning. I prefer the latter approach which wouldn't include overpaying Comeau and Cogliano or even Pavelski as this conversation could look a lot different next year or the year after.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I'm curious why you feel this way - do you think that ANY contact with the goalie should result in no goal?

IMO, too many goals are called back. I think that they should only be called off if there is clear, direct contact, initiated by the skater toward the goalie. If the player and the defender are fighting for space, and they happen to marginally nudge the goalie without any direct intent - and especially if that happens outside the crease - then it should count.

Waving off goals sucks for fans. And it's so marginal and unpredictable. I would like to see this largely removed - blatant contact/interference, or don't worry about it

Going by the rule book it shouldn't have been a goal IMO...the rule itself is a debate for another day. I have seen that play called back multiple times...crease is irrelevant the attacking player has to avoid contacting the goalie especially coming from behind the net.