2020 Blue Jays Season Thread

[flamingred89]

http://https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-blue-jays-tanner-roark-sounds-off-after-being-pulled-1.1521900

Tanner Roark sounds a little frustrated after being pulled last night. I can understand where he’s coming from and share in that frustration. 12 million is a lot to pay for what amounts to an extended reliever going 4-5 innings a game. He says that he generally gets better the longer he’s in games but we haven’t had a chance to see him do that. That could just be blowing smoke, but pitchers like Dickey and Bheurle we’re similar in that regard.

I think the Jays are incredibly fortunate the bullpen has been as good as they are and you can only hope they keep it up. But you can see signs that they’re wearing down right now. I hope this is more of an experiment for the shortened season because I can’t see it being successful over a full schedule.

With that being said, Roark also needs to pitch better haha.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Yeah if he wants to pitch more, then pitch better.
If he gets better as games go on, he should figure out what he needs to do to be better at the start.
Would also curious to see if his actual metrics support that he gets better.

[Roof-Daddy]

It's funny that he says he gets better deeper into games, because the numbers tell a different story. Roark gets lit up 3rd time through the order, and in general he sucks. I have no problem with them yanking him in that spot. It's just too bad Stripling got lit up when he went in.

Starting pitching is the real weak spot on this team.

[mrkajz44]

It's a bit of catch-22 though:

1) Numbers are not great 3rd time through the order
2) Don't allow pitcher to go 3rd time through order
3) Numbers 3rd time through the order cannot improve
4) Go back to step 1

You can't get better at pitching the 3rd time through the order if you never get to do it. I'm more of a fan of letting a guy go as long as he can go, but have a really short hook after the 2nd time through the order.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Ya Stoeten just posted a piece on The Athletic showing a very clear elevation in ERA for Roark the third time through. Those comments by Roark are pretty ridiculous though, calling himself a “diesel engine” and that going far into a game is an expression of “manhood”.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

It's a bit of catch-22 though:

1) Numbers are not great 3rd time through the order
2) Don't allow pitcher to go 3rd time through order
3) Numbers 3rd time through the order cannot improve
4) Go back to step 1

You can't get better at pitching the 3rd time through the order if you never get to do it. I'm more of a fan of letting a guy go as long as he can go, but have a really short hook after the 2nd time through the order.

In a full season yes.
But in this shortened season, I think they are handling it appropriately.
Plus in some cases guys just don't have good enough stuff to get through a third time.

This seems more ego driven, which is disappointing because the team has had a lot of chatter about taking a team first approach and putting ego aside.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

http://https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-blue-jays-tanner-roark-sounds-off-after-being-pulled-1.1521900

Tanner Roark sounds a little frustrated after being pulled last night. I can understand where he’s coming from and share in that frustration. 12 million is a lot to pay for what amounts to an extended reliever going 4-5 innings a game. He says that he generally gets better the longer he’s in games but we haven’t had a chance to see him do that. That could just be blowing smoke, but pitchers like Dickey and Bheurle we’re similar in that regard.

I think the Jays are incredibly fortunate the bullpen has been as good as they are and you can only hope they keep it up. But you can see signs that they’re wearing down right now. I hope this is more of an experiment for the shortened season because I can’t see it being successful over a full schedule.

With that being said, Roark also needs to pitch better haha.

Roark is the definition of mediocrity as a starter (he's a middling 4th or 5th guy) . However, I would have liked to have seen him get into the fifth last night. He had a very clean fourth inning and probably deserved to start the fifth with a decent pitch count. Plus I didn't like bringing Stripling into his first bullpen gig in a such a high leverage situation.

[Enoch Root]

1. Yes, if you want to pitch more, then pitch better
2. However, you also have to consider the people involved - if a pitcher is better with more work, the manager has to recognize that and manage accordingly
3. They need to get the catchers to call for more fastballs. Every single pitcher comes in and starts the inning 2 and 0. And they are throwing way too many pitches per inning. Throw strikes FFS. And that means calling for more fastballs.
4. The starters have all had 8-10 starts now. There is no reason why Montoyo isn't stretching them out more. Not a single pitcher has throw 100 pitches yet this year. Happ threw more than 110 on Tuesday - there is no reason why the Jays pitchers can't.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

It's a bit of catch-22 though:

1) Numbers are not great 3rd time through the order
2) Don't allow pitcher to go 3rd time through order
3) Numbers 3rd time through the order cannot improve
4) Go back to step 1

You can't get better at pitching the 3rd time through the order if you never get to do it. I'm more of a fan of letting a guy go as long as he can go, but have a really short hook after the 2nd time through the order.

The other aspect of this is the bullpen. Yes, numbers go up third time through the order for most starters. However, if you take them out early, you put WAY more pressure on your bullpen.

The question is: which is worse? By my observation of the way the game has changed in the last few years - and especially this year - over taxing the bullpen seems worse.

[Jiggy_12]

Roark sucks, he’s always sucked. And he sucks even more the 3rd time through the order.

His comments are crap too. His manhood? ...What?

Way to needlessly stir the pot on a team that’s sailing pretty smooth right now. Totally unnecessary.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

In a full season yes.
But in this shortened season, I think they are handling it appropriately.
Plus in some cases guys just don't have good enough stuff to get through a third time.

This seems more ego driven, which is disappointing because the team has had a lot of chatter about taking a team first approach and putting ego aside.

I don't think it's fair to say it's ego-driven (Roark's comments aside). It is a league-wide change in the way starters are handled, and by no means is the final verdict in.

[flames_fan_down_under]

But if the plan is working, and currently the Jays are 5 games above .500 so it seems like the plan is working, why change it?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

But if the plan is working, and currently the Jays are 5 games above .500 so it seems like the plan is working, why change it?

I have never understood this argument.

Yes, they are 5 games over .500 - does that mean that everything is perfect? Does that mean that nothing can be improved and every decision they have made was the right one?

Starting pitching has been a problem. And , while the bullpen has been stellar, it is running on fumes. Last night, those decisions caught up with them, and the bullpen had to throw 5 innings and they didn't do a great job of it.

So I think it's fair to ask the question.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Of course you can ask the question and I never said everything was perfect. Like if you really want to see Roark and Chase Anderson throw 100 pitches I’m not sure you will like the results, especially when you have a top 5 bullpen in the league waiting in the wings. It’s a weird season where it’s a sprint to the finish, I would be surprised if this was the norm in 162 game season, but there are only 27 games left I think the pen will be fine, IMO.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I have never understood this argument.

Yes, they are 5 games over .500 - does that mean that everything is perfect? Does that mean that nothing can be improved and every decision they have made was the right one?

Starting pitching has been a problem. And , while the bullpen has been stellar, it is running on fumes. Last night, those decisions caught up with them, and the bullpen had to throw 5 innings and they didn't do a great job of it.

So I think it's fair to ask the question.

They didn't replace Roark with a bullpen arm though, technically. The Jays currently have 6 starters and with two off days coming up wouldn't be using a 6 man rotation this time through so they replaced Roark with another starter, which doesn't tax the bullpen.

Of course, this time it didn't work but I still don't think it was a bad move.

[flamingred89]

I wonder about the long term message it’s sending. Specifically to a guy like Walker who’s a free agent after this season. We know he’s a fiery competitor who wants to pitch. Will he want to sign here knowing that there are internal metrics at play? It’s not a mystery that most SP’s are ego driven and like their stats. So I’m curious if it will effect the ability to attract free agents arms.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

I wonder about the long term message it’s sending. Specifically to a guy like Walker who’s a free agent after this season. We know he’s a fiery competitor who wants to pitch. Will he want to sign here knowing that there are internal metrics at play? It’s not a mystery that most SP’s are ego driven and like their stats. So I’m curious if it will effect the ability to attract free agents arms.

I don't think a stud pitcher is going to worry about being handled by the Jays the same way that guys like Roark and Anderson are being handled.

If someone like Bauer signs here for example, the Jays won't be pulling him out of games after the 4th or 5th inning if he's rolling the way he can.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

I wonder about the long term message it’s sending. Specifically to a guy like Walker who’s a free agent after this season. We know he’s a fiery competitor who wants to pitch. Will he want to sign here knowing that there are internal metrics at play? It’s not a mystery that most SP’s are ego driven and like their stats. So I’m curious if it will effect the ability to attract free agents arms.

Free agents like money . That will be the deciding factor . Especially next year

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't think it's fair to say it's ego-driven (Roark's comments aside). It is a league-wide change in the way starters are handled, and by no means is the final verdict in.

Yeah I was speaking specifically about him. As these comments very much seem to be all about him, even exhibiting self awareness of his own performance

“Yeah, I think it's horsecrap. Just because the computers are saying something different -- I hate it. I’m old school. They signed me here for a reason, to not go three-four innings and throw a certain amount of pitches. I throw a lot of pitches, I try to go as deep as I can," Roark told reporters.

“I’m what you would call a diesel engine. Start off slow then get better as you go on.”

When asked if he had voiced his opinion to the Jays' coaching staff, Roark said he had and added he knows they are "doing their best.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

I wonder about the long term message it’s sending. Specifically to a guy like Walker who’s a free agent after this season. We know he’s a fiery competitor who wants to pitch. Will he want to sign here knowing that there are internal metrics at play? It’s not a mystery that most SP’s are ego driven and like their stats. So I’m curious if it will effect the ability to attract free agents arms.

Walker is unlikely to re-sign anyways. Seems like there is a lot of assumption that he will simply go back to Seattle.