WCSF - Colorado Avalanche (2) vs. Dallas Stars (3)

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Geography hurts the Flames and most Canadian teams...it's not an excuse it's a fact. They would have Kadri and Stone in another market and who knows what else

Absolutely true but all the more reason the Flames have to go with the draft high approach.

Superstars aren't coming to Calgary unless they're drafted there.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The stars have drafted in the first round every since 2009, have picked multiple times in the 1st round twice in that span, and made 9 1st round selections in the top 15.

So just in the last 10 years they've 1) Drafted higher than the flames ever have and 2) drafted in the first round more than once more times than the Flames ever have.

1st round selection Denis Gurianov has 14 points in 15 playoff games this year.

So even if Supermatt is right about there being more than one way of doing things, the Flames aren't doing it the way the stars are, either.

lol

The Stars drafted 3rd, compared to the Flames drafting 4th

Their next highest picks are 10th in 2013 and 8th in 2009, compared to the Flames who picked 6th twice since 2013.

Gurianov was drafted 12th overall. Great pick, but it makes no point whatsoever.

But keep the data-mining coming, as it is always entertaining.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The point is, The Avalanche turned a pending free agent defender into a future asset and the Flames did sweet #### all with their 2 pending UFA defenders. It didn't have to be the Kadri deal, it could've been any deal, for either of the defenders that had top 4 value.

This was the point that I agreed with Flash on- and I still think it stands. If we were willing to trade Brodie for help up front last off season why did we stop when the Kadri trade fell through? There must have been some other options out there? Hell the panthers moved Vinny Trochek (very similar to Kadri imo), why weren't we in on that one?

We were willing to trade a top 4 d, when our preferred deal fell through we just capitulated and ran with the same roster. That was a huge mistake.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

lol

The Stars drafted 3rd, compared to the Flames drafting 4th

Their next highest picks are 10th in 2013 and 8th in 2009, compared to the Flames who picked 6th twice since 2013.

Gurianov was drafted 12th overall. Great pick, but it makes no point whatsoever.

But keep the data-mining coming, as it is always entertaining.

I think you've mistaken his point here- he wasn't saying the stars are built exclusively through high draft picks, just that they consistently hang onto their mid firsts (something the flames did not do via hamonic trade for example.) But otherwise, the stars are constructed relatively similarly to the flames, with better success.

So why does our team suck? Is it poor management? It can't just be "luck".

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This was the point that I agreed with Flash on- and I still think it stands. If we were willing to trade Brodie for help up front last off season why did we stop when the Kadri trade fell through? There must have been some other options out there? Hell the panthers moved Vinny Trochek (very similar to Kadri imo), why weren't we in on that one?

We were willing to trade a top 4 d, when our preferred deal fell through we just capitulated and ran with the same roster. That was a huge mistake.

I’m still baffled as to how Trochek is on any roster but the Flames.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I’m still baffled as to how Trochek is on any roster but the Flames.

Tre must've lost the phone number.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This was the point that I agreed with Flash on- and I still think it stands. If we were willing to trade Brodie for help up front last off season why did we stop when the Kadri trade fell through? There must have been some other options out there? Hell the panthers moved Vinny Trochek (very similar to Kadri imo), why weren't we in on that one?

We were willing to trade a top 4 d, when our preferred deal fell through we just capitulated and ran with the same roster. That was a huge mistake.

The guy that was supposed to take Brodie's place was also injured

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This was the point that I agreed with Flash on- and I still think it stands. If we were willing to trade Brodie for help up front last off season why did we stop when the Kadri trade fell through? There must have been some other options out there? Hell the panthers moved Vinny Trochek (very similar to Kadri imo), why weren't we in on that one?

We were willing to trade a top 4 d, when our preferred deal fell through we just capitulated and ran with the same roster. That was a huge mistake.

I think people oversimplify how hard it is to actually make a trade in the NHL right now.

I don't think the Kadri trade fell through and he just went "Aw shucks that didn't work, guess I'll take the rest of the summer off".

Personally I'd rather he not go make a bad trade just because the preferred trade fell through. Honestly if there was a trade that made the team better on the table I think he'd have made the deal, it just didn't happen.

Look at other trades that occurred around the same time and what d-men/centers moved in deals....I'd rather they keep Brodie than they go move him in a deal for Nikita Zaitsev and Connor Brown for example just because the first trade failed (Those were the two other players the Leafs moved this offseason).

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This was the point that I agreed with Flash on- and I still think it stands. If we were willing to trade Brodie for help up front last off season why did we stop when the Kadri trade fell through? There must have been some other options out there? Hell the panthers moved Vinny Trochek (very similar to Kadri imo), why weren't we in on that one?

We were willing to trade a top 4 d, when our preferred deal fell through we just capitulated and ran with the same roster. That was a huge mistake.

Probably because Valimaki suffered a season ending injury for one, and probably partially because there wasn't much out there. You can't force a rival GM to trade you a legit top 6 C.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The guy that was supposed to take Brodie's place was also injured

Right, I forgot about that timing.

[Flash Walken]

The return didn't have to be a top six C.

The return could have been anything.

Because a return of anything is better than a return of nothing considering the Flames accomplished absolutely nothing this year except a record setting playoff loss.

United had the best post about it, going to your neighbour and offering them a 100k less than list price for their house isn't 'being in on' a deal.

The value of whatever the Flames could have gotten from any team in the league for EITHER Brodie or Hamonic is worth more than the Value they will get from Hamonic and Brodie COMBINED going forward.

An injury to Valimaki should have had 0 impact on the decision to move one of Hamonic or Brodie this year before free agency. Long term plans don't fall by the way-side because of a short term injury.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The return didn't have to be a top six C.

The return could have been anything.

Because a return of anything is better than a return of nothing considering the Flames accomplished absolutely nothing this year except a record setting playoff loss.

United had the best post about it, going to your neighbour and offering them a 100k less than list price for their house isn't 'being in on' a deal.

The value of whatever the Flames could have gotten from any team in the league for EITHER Brodie or Hamonic is worth more than the Value they will get from Hamonic and Brodie COMBINED going forward.

An injury to Valimaki should have had 0 impact on the decision to move one of Hamonic or Brodie this year before free agency. Long term plans don't fall by the way-side because of a short term injury.

By this logic 30 teams should have sold at the deadline...nearly the entire league will lose guys for nothing that is just how it goes. Christ Vancouver traded a 2nd rounder for a UFA

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The return didn't have to be a top six C.

The return could have been anything.

Because a return of anything is better than a return of nothing considering the Flames accomplished absolutely nothing this year except a record setting playoff loss.

United had the best post about it, going to your neighbour and offering them a 100k less than list price for their house isn't 'being in on' a deal.

The value of whatever the Flames could have gotten from any team in the league for EITHER Brodie or Hamonic is worth more than the Value they will get from Hamonic and Brodie COMBINED going forward.

An injury to Valimaki should have had 0 impact on the decision to move one of Hamonic or Brodie this year before free agency. Long term plans don't fall by the way-side because of a short term injury.

I slightly disagree here. You have the benefit of hindsight but it's not that simple at the time.

The Flames were coming off a 1st place finish in the Western Conference. Sure they struggled in the playoffs but you can't ignore that it was a strong regular season last year.

You can't go into complete sellers mode in the offseason coming out of a 1st place finish just because it's a UFA. If the best offer in the offseason was a 2nd round or 3rd rounder for one of those two guys then I don't think you make the deal since you're better off seeing if the team can repeat the performance from the year before.

Sure if a deal like the Kadri deal or a first is on the table then you should make that trade, but I doubt they had a first on the table for Brodie/Hamonic at that point of the offseason.

The unfortunate thing is the Flames probably should have sold on these guys at the deadline but some things prevented that.

Hamonic was injured with no time table to return, at that point he was probably unmovable.

Brodie had his heart episode which limited a lot of his season and potentially limited his value so that doesn't help.

Plus with Valimaki, Hamonic, and Giordano all injured at the deadline you actually don't have enough bodies at the deadline to sell Brodie and still at least remain somewhat competitive.

We were already dressing subpar d-men at that point. I still don't agree with digging a bigger asset hole by adding both Forbort and Gustaffsson. But appreciate there were some other factors that prevented them from moving these guys.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I slightly disagree here. You have the benefit of hindsight but it's not that simple at the time.

You think it's hindsight but it's the way it was at the time.

The Flames were coming off a 1st place finish in the Western Conference. Sure they struggled in the playoffs but you can't ignore that it was a strong regular season last year.

The playoff collapse against Colorado after such an impressive regular season should've been the catalyst for major change. Brodie was at peak value and Hamonic had had a healthy season. The absolute priority of the offseason was to clear the cap space necessary to sign Tkachuk and Mangiapane while making a decision on Hamonic or Brodie.

You can't go into complete sellers mode in the offseason coming out of a 1st place finish just because it's a UFA. If the best offer in the offseason was a 2nd round or 3rd rounder for one of those two guys then I don't think you make the deal since you're better off seeing if the team can repeat the performance from the year before.

Only to a flames fan is moving a pending free agent 'full sellers mode'. If the freakin' cup winner can trade a pending RFA for cost certainty moving forward then so can the single playoff win Flames team for EITHER guy who is a pending UFA.

Sure if a deal like the Kadri deal or a first is on the table then you should make that trade, but I doubt they had a first on the table for Brodie/Hamonic at that point of the offseason.

And yet, trades were made. Trades for defensemen, even. PK Subban was traded, Justin Braun was traded, Neal Pionk was traded, Jacob Trouba was traded, Matta was traded, Colin Miller was traded...

The unfortunate thing is the Flames probably should have sold on these guys at the deadline but some things prevented that.

You can do trades at time, actually, you don't need to wait until the deadline.

Hamonic was injured with no time table to return, at that point he was probably unmovable.

Brodie had his heart episode which limited a lot of his season and potentially limited his value so that doesn't help.

So, both of these problems don't exist if the Flames act prudently and do deals when the rest of the league is doing deals. The Flames put themselves in that position, it wasn't an accident.

Plus with Valimaki, Hamonic, and Giordano all injured at the deadline you actually don't have enough bodies at the deadline to sell Brodie and still at least remain somewhat competitive.

A situation the team should not have been in in the first place.

We were already dressing subpar d-men at that point. I still don't agree with digging a bigger asset hole by adding both Forbort and Gustaffsson. But appreciate there were some other factors that prevented them from moving these guys.

Compounding the problem that should have been dealt with in June or July by trading even more assets for more expiring defender contracts.

You think these are mitigating factors, I'm saying these are exacerbating factors.

Managerial incompetence made a bad situation worse by putting off a decision until it was made for them.

That's the worst kind of decision making.

[GioforPM]

Defence rich Nashville trading Subban is a bit different. Trouba was a problem child (and Pionk was the return), and they expected Buff back, too. Braun had to be traded to make room for Karlsson’s contract. The Pens had 8 D under contract and something had to give. Matta had been a healthy scratch for a week to end the season in which he scoffed 14 points.

None of the trades were of the number 2 D on the team. I agree Brody should have been moved, but none of those are comparable.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The guy that was supposed to take Brodie's place was also injured

Oh, the Flames are gifting top line minutes and top matchups to rookies.

Cool

[jessnuts]

Ron Maclean with a very astute analysis of Cory Perry’s pregame visualizations

[ComixZone]

Star get away with a huge clutch.

Abs get called on a weak hook.

I can’t believe how much help the Stars have gotten from the refs.

[Mass_nerder]

Klingberg is such a diver

[ComixZone]

Unreal.

%#^* the Stars and the refs.