2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Mangiapane had 5 less goals (17 vs 22) at even strength than Anderson had in 2018-19, and he played in 14 less games, and played 4 less minutes on average per night.

He also had a better Corsi than Anderson did in that season, scored more in the playoffs in the same number of playoff games that Anderson played that season, and did it a year younger than Anderson had.

And let's not forget the whopping 1 goal Anderson managed in 26 games before he got injured.

If the question is whether you should be more sold on Mangiapane or Anderson going forward, it's Mangiapane 100%.

Fair enough.

Do you prefer a top six of

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Mangiapane

Or

Gaudreau Monahan Anderson
Tkachuk Backlund Lindholm

Assuming Gaudreau and Monahan are back of course.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Fair enough.

Do you prefer a top six of

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Mangiapane

Or

Gaudreau Monahan Anderson
Tkachuk Backlund Anderson

Assuming Gaudreau and Monahan are back of course.

Did the Flames trade Lindholm for cloning technology?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Did the Flames trade Lindholm for cloning technology?

Fixed.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Has anyone looked closely at the list of Tampa Bay's top-scoring forwards?

Nikita Kucherov — 5'11", 180 lbs
Steven Stamkos — 6'1", 194 lbs
Braydon Point — 5'10", 166 lbs
Alexander Kilorn — 6'1", 194 lbs
Anthony Cirelli — 6'0", 193 lbs
Andrej Palat — 5'11", 194 lbs.

Only two players measuring over 6' tall, not a single forward weighing in at over 200 lbs, and this team is playing in the East Final. The point being that size is becoming less and less relevant to team building. If the Flames are trading a player, I sure hope it is not because he is small.

Nowhere did I say the Flames should trade anybody because they are small.

Nowhere.

[Harry Lime]

Mangiapane is better at the game of hockey than Anderson. He's just going to get better. All players under the age of 25, the Flames should keep, except maybe Janko.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Nowhere did I say the Flames should trade anybody because they are small.

Nowhere.

I know you didn't. I was using your post moreso as a jumping-off point to counter the idea being expressed in this discussion that the Flames have a surplus of small forwards that they should draw from in an effort to add size.

Sorry for the confusion. It was mostly lazy on my part.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TOfan

...Do you prefer a top six of

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Mangiapane

Or

Gaudreau Monahan Anderson
Tkachuk Backlund Lindholm

Assuming Gaudreau and Monahan are back of course.

I take Mangiapane over Anderson all day long, and I say that as someone who is really intrigued by the prospect of acquiring Josh Anderson. But he is the kind of player that the Flames should be capable of adding for cheap—whereas Mangiapane might be one of their more valuable trade commodities if it ever came to that.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Mangiapane is better at the game of hockey than Anderson. He's just going to get better. All players under the age of 25, the Flames should keep, except maybe Janko.

Sure. I’m not arguing that.

However, I am advocating for a change to the top 6. I’m not convinced Gaudreau or Monahan are going to be dealt. If that is the case, I don’t think the top six as it is today cuts it. Adding Anderson to JG and SM provides them with an element I don’t think they have had. I don’t think Treliving has been pursuing Anderson to play on the third line, maybe I’m wrong though.

[Enoch Root]

Size is becoming less of an issue, but it is not a non-issue. It can become an issue if it is a team-wide problem. Also, it isn't size about size, it is more about toughness, which can mean a lot of things.

For the Flames, I think it is a problem. They are, aggregately, too small and too soft. Though it has improved somewhat of late, and is heading in the right direction. Bennett's increased role, and Dube's emergence, have definitely helped.

I still think they need improvement though.

[FlamesAddiction]

Anderson is pretty much a reclamation project at this point. There is no way I would want to give up anything more than a mid-round pick or average prospect for him.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I take Mangiapane over Anderson all day long, and I say that as someone who is really intrigued by the prospect of acquiring Josh Anderson. But he is the kind of player that the Flames should be capable of adding for cheap—whereas Mangiapane might be one of their more valuable trade commodities if it ever came to that.

That's exactly where I sit. I think Anderson is an interesting player, could be good, but at 26 he's had one impressive middle-six calibre season and is coming off shoulder surgery (and an outright embarrassing 26 game stretch before that). He's not a guy I give anything substantial for, and certainly not who I trade Mangiapane for (who surpasses him defensively and has all the tools to eclipse what he's done defensively).

Personally, I think a middle-six of:
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane
Lucic-Bennett-Dube

for a full season could lead to a good increase. They have good chemistry together and produce, we need to see it longer term. The question for me is what you do with the 1st line and the 4th line, and I don't trade any of the middle six guys right now to fix them. UFA or a player swap from those lines would be fine with me.

[Husky]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Sure. I’m not arguing that.

However, I am advocating for a change to the top 6. I’m not convinced Gaudreau or Monahan are going to be dealt. If that is the case, I don’t think the top six as it is today cuts it. Adding Anderson to JG and SM provides them with an element I don’t think they have had. I don’t think Treliving has been pursuing Anderson to play on the third line, maybe I’m wrong though.

Dont agree. They had ferland for a few years. Didnt really add to their game IMO.

End of the day JG and SM need to compete harder. They have floated too much last couple of years. No consistent drive

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I take Mangiapane over Anderson all day long, and I say that as someone who is really intrigued by the prospect of acquiring Josh Anderson. But he is the kind of player that the Flames should be capable of adding for cheap—whereas Mangiapane might be one of their more valuable trade commodities if it ever came to that.

Okay, do let’s expand it. Columbus is deep at G. Could David Savard be moved? What about Bjokstrand or Bemstrom?

Could the Glames move Mangiapane and a LHS D for three of the above, Anderson Merzlikins and Savard?

[Enoch Root]

I would prefer Toffoli over Anderson.

Two of the biggest problems Monahan's line was having in the playoffs was an inability to generate forecheck pressure or to retrieve pucks. They also had no net-front presence. I think Toffoli would help all of those things.

And I think the Flames' lineup looks infinitely better if you can move Lindholm down.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Toffoli
Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm (would really like to see that)
Mangiapane - Bennett - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - XXX

Or you could leave Mangiapane where he was and have Lindholm with Bennett and Dube.

Either way, you have 3 really solid lines

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Size is becoming less of an issue, but it is not a non-issue. It can become an issue if it is a team-wide problem. Also, it isn't size about size, it is more about toughness, which can mean a lot of things.

Exactly right. Yes.

For the Flames, I think it is a problem. They are, aggregately, too small and too soft. Though it has improved somewhat of late, and is heading in the right direction. Bennett's increased role, and Dube's emergence, have definitely helped.

I still think they need improvement though.

I don't entirely agree. Too soft? Yes. Too small? Maybe. I would prefer to describe the issue as a shortage of strength and resolve as opposed to size—sometimes a team can overcome this with an injection of size, but not always. Teams with a high number of smaller forwards like TB can be successful—it's about how players play their role, and how the team as a whole plays the game.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Husky

Dont agree. They had ferland for a few years. Didnt really add to their game IMO.

End of the day JG and SM need to compete harder. They have floated too much last couple of years. No consistent drive

Yes. Guess I’m guilty of a short memory. Although no two players are the same and Ferland never came close to 200/200/20. Anderson is somewhere between Michael Ferland plus and Tom Wilson lite.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Anderson is pretty much a reclamation project at this point. There is no way I would want to give up anything more than a mid-round pick or average prospect for him.

So if you are the Jackets why would you move him? If the return is that low you are better off hoping he bounces back and keeping him.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Exactly right. Yes.


I don't entirely agree. Too soft? Yes. Too small? Maybe. I would prefer to describe the issue as a shortage of strength and resolve as opposed to size—sometimes a team can overcome this with an injection of size, but not always. Teams with a high number of smaller forwards like TB can be successful—it's about how players play their role, and how the team as a whole plays the game.

I agree. But I think in the Flames' case, size and toughness ARE a problem.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Okay, do let’s expand it. Columbus is deep at G. Could David Savard be moved? What about Bjokstrand or Bemstrom?

Could the Glames move Mangiapane and a LHS D for three of the above, Anderson Merzlikins and Savard?

Your premise is constructed on the belief that neither one of Gaudreau and Monahan is getting moved, and I am much less convinced of that. More to the point, I think there is a significantly higher likelihood that one of Gaudreau or Monahan is traded by Treliving than Mangiapane.

Put it this way: the only reason I would see to trading Mangiapane now is if 1) there is a substantial overpay on the table for him, or 2) he has priced himself out of the market.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I would prefer Toffoli over Anderson.

Two of the biggest problems Monahan's line was having in the playoffs was an inability to generate forecheck pressure or to retrieve pucks. They also had no net-front presence. I think Toffoli would help all of those things.

And I think the Flames' lineup looks infinitely better if you can move Lindholm down.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Toffoli
Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm (would really like to see that)
Mangiapane - Bennett - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - XXX

Or you could leave Mangiapane where he was and have Lindholm with Bennett and Dube.

Either way, you have 3 really solid lines

Toffoli makes me nervous, seems like yet another near 30 year old mid tier UFA who is going to get a big UFA contract and then turn into a pumpkin.

Hall also carries this risk, but at least with Hall you are getting a career 0.90 point per game player and not a career 0.57 point per game player.

$7-8 million AAV for Hall or $5-6 million AAV for Toffoli, I go after Hall 1st and probably leave Toffoli alone.