Jason Botchford of the Athletic..dead at age 48

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Not to mention decriminalization/legalization would take money out of the hands of some of the most violent organizations in the world.

This would be modest at best.

Legalizing is one thing, taxing and regulating is another, which costs money. The black market would still be vibrant as the economics adapt.

As for Mr. Botchford - it's certainly sad. But not as sad as someone that died from something that didn't involve their own bad judgement and stupid decisions.

[curves2000]

This may not be the most popular opinion here and some may or may not agree but I have always found that the LEVEL of drug abuse we have in Canada and the USA is really more of a North American problem.

The entire world uses drugs but with the level of drug abuse and the associated problems seem to be normalized here more so than in other parts of the world. People have a variety of reasons for using drugs but we have vast amounts of people in Canada and the USA that are dabbling in drugs either legally or illegally and are in a perpetual "f***ed up" stage.

Walking around any major Canadian or American city and you see the level of despair and the level of addicts and the associated problems. In a lot of major cities globally, you may have some sections or a few streets where some of the users may congregate but it's not out in the open and the levels of problems like we see.

I grew up in downtown Calgary and work some evenings down there, the level of people who are on something is just plain sad. On recent visits to Vancouver and other parts of BC it's on a different level.

Whenever I travel to Greece every summer and other parts of Europe and visit the local areas, it's such a contrast to what is happening back home that's almost a different world. Don't get me wrong, European's use drugs but it's most likely a much smaller scale and more quietly. The associated problems are on a smaller scale.

A conversation with a full on American kid from the midwest who married a girl in Greece was eye opening. He described in detail what has happened to various towns in America with the level of devastation cause of drugs and how "clean" Athens was in contrast, ironically we were having this conversation in the "rougher" part of Athens that is known as the anarchist part of the city.

He said something that stuck with me. A lot of cities and countries would never allow themselves to become a Seattle or a Vancouver and he gave examples like Tokyo, Signapore and others in Asia and the Middle East.

He asked "Why are we North American's in a constant need to numb our pains via serious alcohol, drugs and other addictive substances like junk food and consumerism"??

Made me think and I agreed as someone who has never dabbled in drugs. I don't have answers but I don't think the way we are going as a society is benefiting anybody. I don't see anybody really winning any battles here.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Firstly, to the “you can’t legalise them because they’re too risky” idea. Most of these drugs are risky because they’re illegal. Instead of knowing what you’re getting from verifiable sources you can trust, you’re often taking a gamble with some dealer with no idea what exactly you’re getting and what it’s cut with. The whole war on drugs is a complicated thing, it’s not nearly as simple as saying they’re illegal because their dangerous.

Second, Language is certainly not in the minority from my experience. I know of more people than I can count on two hands who are recreational users with no dependency issues. This is probably a stigma that some people need to get over before society can have any reasonable conversation about drugs. This fabricated idea that everyone who tries them becomes an addict, that they’re all dangerous and that’s why the government is protecting us from them, etc.

This second paragraph makes me a little uneasy. People with addictions can go to great lengths to disguise their issues from loved ones and most of all themselves. It seems a little cavalier to proclaim your group of 10+ suffer no dependency issues.

I’m not suggesting everyone is an addict but we also shouldn’t suggest the danger of addiction isn’t a very real concern.

If we want to have a real conversation , I wouldn’t attack the position that everyone who tries drugs is an addict because that’s a fringe perspective that very few people take. And for some, the simple possibility of addiction and the priority they place on their own health is an extremely valid reason to never dabble in drugs and to at least consider the idea their use should be unlawful.

[afc wimbledon]

The difficulty with decriminalizing opiods is that there isnt any way to make them safe as your overdose risk is determined by both the strength of the drug and the users variable tolerance, you can have a rock solid supply of known stregnth drugs and you will still get overdoses

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The difficulty with decriminalizing opiods is that there isnt any way to make them safe as your overdose risk is determined by both the strength of the drug and the users variable tolerance, you can have a rock solid supply of known stregnth drugs and you will still get overdoses

But way fewer.....

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by curves2000

This may not be the most popular opinion here and some may or may not agree but I have always found that the LEVEL of drug abuse we have in Canada and the USA is really more of a North American problem.

The entire world uses drugs but with the level of drug abuse and the associated problems seem to be normalized here more so than in other parts of the world. People have a variety of reasons for using drugs but we have vast amounts of people in Canada and the USA that are dabbling in drugs either legally or illegally and are in a perpetual "f***ed up" stage.

Walking around any major Canadian or American city and you see the level of despair and the level of addicts and the associated problems. In a lot of major cities globally, you may have some sections or a few streets where some of the users may congregate but it's not out in the open and the levels of problems like we see.

I grew up in downtown Calgary and work some evenings down there, the level of people who are on something is just plain sad. On recent visits to Vancouver and other parts of BC it's on a different level.

Whenever I travel to Greece every summer and other parts of Europe and visit the local areas, it's such a contrast to what is happening back home that's almost a different world. Don't get me wrong, European's use drugs but it's most likely a much smaller scale and more quietly. The associated problems are on a smaller scale.

A conversation with a full on American kid from the midwest who married a girl in Greece was eye opening. He described in detail what has happened to various towns in America with the level of devastation cause of drugs and how "clean" Athens was in contrast, ironically we were having this conversation in the "rougher" part of Athens that is known as the anarchist part of the city.

He said something that stuck with me. A lot of cities and countries would never allow themselves to become a Seattle or a Vancouver and he gave examples like Tokyo, Signapore and others in Asia and the Middle East.

He asked "Why are we North American's in a constant need to numb our pains via serious alcohol, drugs and other addictive substances like junk food and consumerism"??

Made me think and I agreed as someone who has never dabbled in drugs. I don't have answers but I don't think the way we are going as a society is benefiting anybody. I don't see anybody really winning any battles here.

I’d be interested to see the numbers on this, oppose to anecdotal claims. Specifically the alcohol and consumerism claims. And then of course, if true, the reasons why.

[Wastedyouth]

If we legalize drugs, and provide and support social programs for all types of addiction, support and education, I honestly believe we end up cutting down on a large amount of death and related drug addiction issues (family, career, etc.).

A lack of education on what these drugs can and cannot do, creating a taboo about them, and shaming people who do them, is what, in my opinion, gives them and addiction its true power.

And I say this as someone who isn't even an occasional recreational drug user. Although I have dabbled in my past.

Even with alcohol. I believe we would limit teenager and underage drinking problems if we normalize alcohol in our lives and stopped treating it like its something sacred only adults can do (wtf is an "adult" anyways).

You stop making it illicit, and it stops being illicit and it loses it power over peoples minds.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by curves2000

This may not be the most popular opinion here and some may or may not agree but I have always found that the LEVEL of drug abuse we have in Canada and the USA is really more of a North American problem.

The entire world uses drugs but with the level of drug abuse and the associated problems seem to be normalized here more so than in other parts of the world. People have a variety of reasons for using drugs but we have vast amounts of people in Canada and the USA that are dabbling in drugs either legally or illegally and are in a perpetual "f***ed up" stage.

Walking around any major Canadian or American city and you see the level of despair and the level of addicts and the associated problems. In a lot of major cities globally, you may have some sections or a few streets where some of the users may congregate but it's not out in the open and the levels of problems like we see.

I grew up in downtown Calgary and work some evenings down there, the level of people who are on something is just plain sad. On recent visits to Vancouver and other parts of BC it's on a different level.

Whenever I travel to Greece every summer and other parts of Europe and visit the local areas, it's such a contrast to what is happening back home that's almost a different world. Don't get me wrong, European's use drugs but it's most likely a much smaller scale and more quietly. The associated problems are on a smaller scale.

A conversation with a full on American kid from the midwest who married a girl in Greece was eye opening. He described in detail what has happened to various towns in America with the level of devastation cause of drugs and how "clean" Athens was in contrast, ironically we were having this conversation in the "rougher" part of Athens that is known as the anarchist part of the city.

He said something that stuck with me. A lot of cities and countries would never allow themselves to become a Seattle or a Vancouver and he gave examples like Tokyo, Signapore and others in Asia and the Middle East.

He asked "Why are we North American's in a constant need to numb our pains via serious alcohol, drugs and other addictive substances like junk food and consumerism"??

Made me think and I agreed as someone who has never dabbled in drugs. I don't have answers but I don't think the way we are going as a society is benefiting anybody. I don't see anybody really winning any battles here.

I would agree with that. There is something in North American culture that results in (IMO) a higher degree of substance ABUSE (not necessarily use).

As you pointed out, this is not just in terms of illegal drugs, but alcohol as well (or even junk food and consumerism as you pointed out).

Even in Quebec, which is a mix of European and N.A. cultures, I (anecdotally) find much less substance abuse than what I find when I cross the border into the states or Ontario. And, as you pointed out, this is not limited to big cities. I see more and more in small towns now.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

I would agree with that. There is something in North American culture that results in (IMO) a higher degree of substance ABUSE (not necessarily use).

As you pointed out, this is not just in terms of illegal drugs, but alcohol as well (or even junk food and consumerism as you pointed out).

Even in Quebec, which is a mix of European and N.A. cultures, I (anecdotally) find much less substance abuse than what I find when I cross the border into the states or Ontario. And, as you pointed out, this is not limited to big cities. I see more and more in small towns now.

Quick look at a survey from Public Health Canada in 2004 says otherwise. I’d be interested to dive into these numbers more, but these anecdotal claims are baseless. Although the numbers are relatively similar throughout Canada, Quebec has the highest use of alcohol in Canada, amongst males and females (this ranking drops in categories of drinking to excess however)

Second highest lifetime use of any of these 5 illicit drugs (cocaine, speed, ecstasy, hallucinogens, heroin). BC is 1, AB is 3.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Quick look at a survey from Public Health Canada in 2004 says otherwise. I’d be interested to dive into these numbers more, but these anecdotal claims are baseless. Although the numbers are relatively similar throughout Canada, Quebec has the highest use of alcohol in Canada, amongst males and females (this ranking drops in categories of drinking to excess however)

Second highest lifetime use of any of these 5 illicit drugs (cocaine, speed, ecstasy, hallucinogens, heroin). BC is 1, AB is 3.

Like I said, I am not talking about usage, I am talking about abuse. I would bet that a high proportion of people in QC (and Europe) drink alcohol regularly (like daily), but rarely in excess.

The same is probably true with recreational drugs. But, this is all anecdotal.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

Like I said, I am not talking about usage, I am talking about abuse. I would bet that a high proportion of people in QC (and Europe) drink alcohol regularly (like daily), but rarely in excess.



The same is probably true with recreational drugs. But, this is all anecdotal.

Well, "Europe" is a big place comprised of numerous cultures, many of which are vastly different from one another. The consumption and abuse of alcohol is also substantially different from one place to the next. Take, for example, two Scandanavian countries: Finland and Norway. Alcoholism has been for a long time a serious problem in Finland, and less so in Norway. One of the reasons for this is how strictly controlled alcohol is by the Norwegian State, how difficult it is to purchase, and how prohibitively expensive it is. Much like Canada, in Norway alcohol is only available at government retailers or in tightly licensed restaurants and bars. Unlike Canada, if you haven't purchased alcohol by 3:00 in the afternoon on Friday, you are #### out of luck, because the liquor store does not open again until Monday afternoon. If you do manage to get to the liquor store on time, you can then expect also to pay a small fortune in government levies and taxes. I have spent the equivalent of $50 on a single 500 ml bottle of beer.

So, while there is no doubt that European cultures have varying relationships to alcohol, and in some places it is much healthier than our own response here in NA. But not everywhere is the same, and some countries have dealt with alcoholism by instituting a soft-form of prohibition. It certainly works to varying degrees, but at what cost?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Ryan Coke]

The benefits of legalizing and controlling the distribution of a given substance has to be balanced against the greater numbers of people that will you use with greater frequency once legalized. If something has been deemed to be safe and legal by the government, there is no doubt more people will experiment and use than if it was illegal and harder to get.

So the direct health risks (addiction, heart issues, whatever else) have to be weighed vs indirect risks (laced with other chemicals, risks associated with the illegal supply line) on the greater numbers of people being exposed to the direct risks if it were legalized.

I can see the benefit in a substance being legally available to a current regular user who will use regardless of its legality, but there will be greater numbers of people who would use that wouldn’t have if it remained illegal.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

As for Mr. Botchford - it's certainly sad. But not as sad as someone that died from something that didn't involve their own bad judgement and stupid decisions.

I am torn on whether legalizing drugs is the way to go. I am not sure what the answer is. The Four Pillars approach has merits, but I do worry about some possible out comes from that. I also think Jason Botchford was a hack writer.

Here is something I am pretty sure of though: A death caused by a drug being unexpectedly spiked or laced with an additive that causes it to be infinitely more potent than you are used too is incredibly sad. It is shocking. It is unexpected. It's like saying a date-rape isn't as bad as a rape because the girl was out drinking and showing poor judgment. If cases like this were more talked about and brought up in the media, we would have a lot fewer cases like this.

[PepsiFree]

And, to be fair, I'm not sure anyone cares just how said a complete stranger finds someone's death. For his family and friends, it is as sad as any sudden loss. I'm not really sure his children are thinking "well I would be more said if it weren't for dad's bad judgement."

[CliffFletcher]

Reducing addiction and fatalities through increased intervention programs is an attractive prospect, but we need to have modest expectations about its effectiveness. The long-term (5 years) efficacy of drug rehabilitation programs is around 20 per cent. It's not nothing, but it still leaves the great majority of addicts who can be persuaded to participate in thrall to their illness and vulnerable to overdoses and fatality.

Why do cultures vary dramatically in the numbers of people who use and abuse drugs, and who are vulnerable to addiction? It can't just be lack of education - there are countries far poorer and less educated than Canada where addiction and substance abuse are uncommon (Indonesia, Nigeria, Turkey). While there are countries comparable to Canada in education and affluence with dramatically lower fatalities from drugs and alcohol (Spain, Italy, Japan). And countries where draconian measures against drugs are effective at suppressing use at far lower rates (Singapore, China, Myanmar).

https://ourworldindata.org/drug-use

We live in a liberal, secular, individualistic society. Which is a good thing in most respects. But everything has its trade-offs. We're free to make choices, defy conventions, seek out pleasure where we can find it. People in much of the world don't have anywhere near that freedom, and live constrained by powerful religious, familial, and cultural norms that most of us would find intolerably oppressive. But they do suffer less from drug abuse and other hedonic social ills.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jayswin

But way fewer.....

not necessarily, if the legalization/decriminalization created more users then you could have more overall deaths even if the deaths per user level went down

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

not necessarily, if the legalization/decriminalization created more users then you could have more overall deaths even if the deaths per user level went down

Is there any evidence that it would though? What has happened with pot usage?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

not necessarily, if the legalization/decriminalization created more users then you could have more overall deaths even if the deaths per user level went down

I'm curious because I couldn't find any data on it, but I wonder if heroin overdoses were common back when heroin was legal.

I also can't help but wonder if the plethora of synthetic street drugs would exist at all today if other drugs weren't completely prohibited.

[afc wimbledon]

drugs are just a product like any other, their price and availability determine their usage, if you make them cheaper and easier to get more people will try them/use them.

How you legalize heroin but keep it expensive and difficult to obtain is something of a problem

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

drugs are just a product like any other, their price and availability determine their usage, if you make them cheaper and easier to get more people will try them/use them.

How you legalize heroin but keep it expensive and difficult to obtain is something of a problem

The price of heroin or any other product in a free market would be set by demand which sets the price. I don't care if it would be available for free, I still wouldn't use it.