Will the NHL boycott games? Should it?

[Elkyiv]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

I didn’t know OJ was shot, while unarmed. I thought he was arrested, tried, convicted and went to jail for committing a crime.

Irrelevant as to what happened.

We're talking about bringing up a person's criminal history, something the poster I was replying to suggested shouldn't matter when police deal with a suspect.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I have a great deal of respect for the good cops that are out there, my life was saved by two of them. But you also have to realize that moving that money into other areas will ease their burden too, because they are asked to do several things that they aren't trained for. That money could be used to train social workers to go with police for things like welfare checks. I agree wholeheartedly about deescalation training, it is something that is desperately needed, using their gun should always be a last resort.

Does anyone really think this defund concept will bring the fruit that is being sold? I am very skeptical.

Social workers responding at all hours to welfare checks, domestics, and erratic behavior seems like a impossibility. We can't even fully staff emergency rooms in the evening hours. And this isn't a funding issue, its a way of life for the current generation of professional who would rather work 9-5 for less pay than midnight shifts. This is a real problem in our healthcare system and now we think it's possible to get countless trained counselors to respond to potentially violent situations?

I am all for a change to policing and the way they are trained but I just don't see this exact idea working.

I'm in Germany right now and they seem to have a much better system where it takes over 2 years to be trained and become a police officer. People here are just appalled by what's going on in the US right now, they can't even wrap their head around why people can wander the streets with guns and cops constantly shoot people. The police seem to have a very different way of reacting to situations here, deescalating rather than going in heavy and trying to get out as quickly as possible.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Elkyiv

Irrelevant as to what happened.

We're talking about bringing up a person's criminal history, something the poster I was replying to suggested shouldn't matter when police deal with a suspect.

Criminal history during the heat of the arrest. Not afterthought.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Brando

I apologize if I wasn’t clear, but I did not try to say that. The narrative that police are shooting black people disproportionately is simple not true. Unarmed white people are also being shot. On a second look the correct number is 24 white to 14 (Not 9)black in 2019.
-403 white suspects were killed by police
-24 were unarmed
-205 black suspects were killed by police
-14 black suspects were unarmed
-5.9% of white suspects killed were unarmed.
-5.6% of black suspects killed were unarmed.

The narrative that cops are racists gunning down black men is wrong. Black deaths are just in the media while white deaths aren’t. All the deaths are sad. But pushing this false agenda is just causing more division and chaos and that is needless and sad.

Sounds like you are an expert in statistics to try and convince yourself of false messages...now remember to divide by the fact that 13.4% of the US is black and 63% is white (~2.5X). Based on your own math - If you are a black man, you are 5X as likely to be shot as a black man than if you were white.

All of this disregards the discussion that we should be having which is that black's in the US and aboriginals in Canada are not born/hardwired to be criminals. How do we solve the problems in these communities and how do we fix the biases throughout the system that continue to treat them as such when they are not. I am always amazed by the entitlement of people that have done nothing except having the luck of being born into the right family...

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Elkyiv

Irrelevant as to what happened.

We're talking about bringing up a person's criminal history, something the poster I was replying to suggested shouldn't matter when police deal with a suspect.

I thought the issue was that a prior criminal history should not be relevant to excusing an unarmed black man being shot.

OJ’s prior history, and what many believe was getting away with murder, was discussed when he was arrested, through to conviction and eventual release, as a prior significant fact.

Ps. I’m being sincere with what I thought was the difference, not being argumentative for argument’s sake.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by LeatherFace

Toronto/GTA is one of the top multicultural cities in the world and there are millions of minorities living here with hundreds of thousands of them living in poverty in the exact same neigbhorhoods as black families do and all their kids go to the same schools and hang out at the same parks and malls as black kids do and yet how come very few of those non-black minority kids turn to violence and crime?

WTF are you talking about? Asian, middle eastern kids are over represented in gangs in Toronto at nearly the same rate as Black kids. Black kids are no more likely to be involved in crime than other ethnic groups. But you should ask cops in TO why they chose to card black people at about a 3 x's rate as compared to other ethnic groups when they had free reign to ID anyone they wanted to for no reason. Then ask prosecutors and judges why sentences for Black convicts are harsher than for Whites with similar records. But yeah...what's systemic racism indeed.



http://beta.legalaid.on.ca/strategic...2016-05-EN.pdf


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Toronto


https://johnhoward.ca/blog/race-crime-justice-canada/

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I have a great deal of respect for the good cops that are out there, my life was saved by two of them. But you also have to realize that moving that money into other areas will ease their burden too, because they are asked to do several things that they aren't trained for. That money could be used to train social workers to go with police for things like welfare checks. I agree wholeheartedly about deescalation training, it is something that is desperately needed, using their gun should always be a last resort.

CR, I'm curious to know what your thoughts would be on increasing funding to the various social agencies/programs that could offload some of the responsibilities currently held by police, but without reducing police funding.


Aside from being a terrible slogan for all sorts of reasons, I'm not actually sure "defund the police" is what people who advocate for it actually want. Don't they really want better funding for social agencies/programs, and some of these agencies handling matters that the police are currently tasked with? It doesn't seem to me that the funding of these agencies/programs must come from police budgets.



In fact, it could be argued that by offloading some of the social duties police perform, their resources could be better spent on complex criminal investigations and better training.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

CR, I'm curious to know what your thoughts would be on increasing funding to the various social agencies/programs that could offload some of the responsibilities currently held by police, but without reducing police funding.


Aside from being a terrible slogan for all sorts of reasons, I'm not actually sure "defund the police" is what people who advocate for it actually want. Don't they really want better funding for social agencies/programs, and some of these agencies handling matters that the police are currently tasked with? It doesn't seem to me that the funding of these agencies/programs must come from police budgets.



In fact, it could be argued that by offloading some of the social duties police perform, their resources could be better spent on complex criminal investigations and better training.

Where else does the money come from? Look at LAs city budget for example, the LAPD gets 38.8% of the total departmentary budget for the city, the next highest department is LAFD at a little more than 1/3 of that. Does the LAPD really need $10m in new equipment every year? When the entire city budget for new equipment is only $11.6m? I'm going to go with no.

Defund is a common term for budget cuts, I doubt it's a coincidence this is the only topic in which people "misinterpret" it.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by LeatherFace

Can you define what 'systemic racism' means to you and where in Canadian society that you see systemic racism in action that always only seems to impact natives or black people and not any other minority group in any significant way?

Toronto/GTA is one of the top multicultural cities in the world and there are millions of minorities living here with hundreds of thousands of them living in poverty in the exact same neigbhorhoods as black families do and all their kids go to the same schools and hang out at the same parks and malls as black kids do and yet how come very few of those non-black minority kids turn to violence and crime?

Wouldn't we except that because they live in the exact same environment and poverty side by side with black people that they too would have more of their kids also being involved in crime, violence and gangs and yet that hasn't happened at all. I wonder why? Are they privileged too in some way that they're able to avoid all of that?:

So, Toronto Police Services has openly admitted there is a problem with the service being provided and calls for fundamental change, and not more funding. Directly from them, in 2017 and their action plan to address this exact issue:

• The evidence and best practices from other jurisdictions and organizations confirm that the limits of the existing model of policing have been reached.
The answer to outdated service delivery cannot simply be more public funding. To contain costs and ensure value for money, fundamental change is needed.

You can read the whole thing here: https://www.torontopolice.on.ca/TheW...ary-mobile.pdf

Reallocate and defund have the same meaning. If you “reallocate” funds, the division losing a portion of that funding has been “defunded”. If you’re hung up on that point alone, maybe get over it. “Reallocate police funding” doesn’t have the same ring. Nor does “Remember that black lives matter as well!” Then again, you could make this same argument for pretty much any press headline ever written, and you need to actually dive into the substance to understand what anyone is trying to say. That isn’t a new concept.

As for the racism problems in Toronto Police Sevices, here a recent report from the Ontario Human Rights Commission: http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/public-inte...mination-black

According to the 2016 Census, the population of Toronto was 2,731,571. “Visible minorities” made up 51.5% of population. The largest “visible minority” groups were South Asian, Chinese and Black, who made up 12.6%, 11.1% and 8.8% of the population respectively.[23] There were 239,850 Black people in Toronto.[24]

The name SIU is used throughout, remember that their cases only involve serious injury, sexual assault, or death by police. Here is the definition:

The Special Investigations Unit
The SIU is a civilian body and arms-length agency of the Ministry of the Attorney General with jurisdiction extending to all police officers in Ontario. The SIU’s mandate is set out in the Police Services Act. Its mandate is to conduct investigations into the circumstances of serious injuries and deaths that may have resulted from criminal offences committed by police officers, including allegations of sexual assault. It has the power to investigate police officers and lay criminal charges if there are reasonable grounds to do so.[48]

“Serious injuries” are defined by the SIU as:

“Serious injuries” shall include those that are likely to interfere with the health or comfort of the victim and are more than merely transient or trifling in nature and will include serious injury resulting from sexual assault. “Serious Injury” shall initially be presumed when the victim is admitted to hospital, suffers a fracture to a limb, rib or vertebrae or to the skull, suffers burns to a major portion of the body or loses any portion of the body or suffers loss of vision or hearing, or alleges sexual assault.[49]

The SIU does not have a mandate to investigate discrimination or officer misconduct. The SIU does not have the authority to investigate alleged violations of the Code or other forms of improper conduct, make findings of discrimination, or lay disciplinary charges for officer misconduct that proceed to a disciplinary hearing.[50]

Black people were over-represented in use of force cases (28.8%), shootings (36%), deadly encounters (61.5%) and fatal shootings (70%). Black men make up 4.1% of Toronto’s population, yet were complainants in a quarter of SIU cases alleging sexual assault by TPS officers.

Between 2013 and 2017, a Black person was far more likely than a White person to be involved in an incident involving Toronto Police use of force that resulted in serious injury or death. A Black person was:

- 3.1 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a SIU investigation
- 3.6 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police use of force case
- 4.9 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police shooting that resulted in serious civilian injury or death
- 11.3 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police use of force case that resulted in civilian death
- 19.5 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police shooting that resulted in civilian death.

The white guys probably have clean records though and go peacefully eh? At least significantly more often right? Negative:

Although there were more allegations of Black people (41.7%) resisting arrest than White people (25.5%), White people were more likely to have a criminal record (54.5%) and to have allegedly threatened or attacked police (61.8%) than Black people (44.4% – criminal record; 44.4% – threatened or attacked police).

61.8% of white people resisting arrest threatened or attacked police but they were 3-4 times more likely to be arrested without injury, and 11-19 times LESS likely to be choked or shot to death by police.

Back to “reallocation” of funding merits:

From 2013-2017, according to SIU reports, most civilians (70.4%) were not exhibiting mental health issues at the time of their encounter with the TPS that involved use of force. However, a large proportion of use of force cases involved people exhibiting mental health issues (29.6%).

30% of police calls that resulted in serious injury or death were mental health calls. Clearly this is worthy of having its own division to deal with these matters.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Where else does the money come from? Look at LAs city budget for example, the LAPD gets 38.8% of the total departmentary budget for the city, the next highest department is LAFD at a little more than 1/3 of that. Does the LAPD really need $10m in new equipment every year? When the entire city budget for new equipment is only $11.6m? I'm going to go with no.

Defund is a common term for budget cuts, I doubt it's a coincidence this is the only topic in which people "misinterpret" it.

I'd argue that, if Covid has shown us nothing else governments can marshal huge sums of money if properly motivated. Municipal governments less so, but I see no reason cities should have to deal with what is essentially a national issue on their own.

And we agree that "defund" and "budget cuts" are basically synonymous. My question is more whether you see cutting police budgets as an essential - or even primary - aspect of what advocates want, or whether proper funding of social agencies is really the central aim.

Underlying my question is, I suppose, a question about whether the argument is primarily about spending on social programs to improve the way citizens are dealt with by police, or about punishing police, or both.

I should add, I'm only directing the question to you because of your very personal stake in these issues, which most posters won't feel as keenly. But the question really is one I'd be interested in a variety of views on.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I'd argue that, if Covid has shown us nothing else governments can marshal huge sums of money if properly motivated. Municipal governments less so, but I see no reason cities should have to deal with what is essentially a national issue on their own.

And we agree that "defund" and "budget cuts" are basically synonymous. My question is more whether you see cutting police budgets as an essential - or even primary - aspect of what advocates want, or whether proper funding of social agencies is really the central aim.

Underlying my question is, I suppose, a question about whether the argument is primarily about spending on social programs to improve the way citizens are dealt with by police, or about punishing police, or both.

I should add, I'm only directing the question to you because of your very personal stake in these issues, which most posters won't feel as keenly. But the question really is one I'd be interested in a variety of views on.

They didn't marshall huge sums of money, they just used your future money to pay other people and add it to the debt you as a taxpayer will have to pay back. They did not cut one government service and restrict spending. They can "defund" or "reallocate" all the funds they need but people should not be surprised when a social worker is attacked the first night they go out to a domestic dispute.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

They didn't marshall huge sums of money, they just used your future money to pay other people and add it to the debt you as a taxpayer will have to pay back. They did not cut one government service and restrict spending. They can "defund" or "reallocate" all the funds they need but people should not be surprised when a social worker is attacked the first night they go out to a domestic dispute.

Do you think those same people would be surprised that 1 in 4 nurses are assaulted on the job? Social work isn’t easy, but it’s necessary, requires a ton of training, and there are lots of people who want to get into it.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I'd argue that, if Covid has shown us nothing else governments can marshal huge sums of money if properly motivated. Municipal governments less so, but I see no reason cities should have to deal with what is essentially a national issue on their own.

And we agree that "defund" and "budget cuts" are basically synonymous. My question is more whether you see cutting police budgets as an essential - or even primary - aspect of what advocates want, or whether proper funding of social agencies is really the central aim.

Underlying my question is, I suppose, a question about whether the argument is primarily about spending on social programs to improve the way citizens are dealt with by police, or about punishing police, or both.

I should add, I'm only directing the question to you because of your very personal stake in these issues, which most posters won't feel as keenly. But the question really is one I'd be interested in a variety of views on.

If investing money in social programs works, there won't be the need to have the same police presence. It is also about demilitarizing the police.

[MRCboicgy]

Always good to re-post this when it comes to police reform


https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/us/ca...rnd/index.html


tl;dr created a partnership with police for more social and mental health professionals along with EMS.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Do you think those same people would be surprised that 1 in 4 nurses are assaulted on the job? Social work isn’t easy, but it’s necessary, requires a ton of training, and there are lots of people who want to get into it.

I never said it wasn't necessary. Just that we need to think about sending someone out to the most volatile situation, domestic dispute, and hope they can talk them down. These changes won't happen over night, and these comments from me are coming from a guy who told his kids from a young age to never trust the cops.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

I never said it wasn't necessary. Just that we need to think about sending someone out to the most volatile situation, domestic dispute, and hope they can talk them down. These changes won't happen over night, and these comments from me are coming from a guy who told his kids from a young age to never trust the cops.

We already do though, that’s my point. And sending social workers/deescalation experts are used in other countries. None of this is new, it just isn’t being done widely here.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Brando

Which stats are you referring too? Are you suggesting that police are killing unarmed black people at a disproportional rate?

Last year there was 24 unarmed white people killed by police. There were nine unarmed black people killed. Considering that black men (6% of the population) make up for over 50 percent of the violent crimes, it shows us that it is not the case that unarmed black people are being murdered by racist cops.

Your post shows exactly that, racism.

~72 percent of the US population is white and only ~13 percent of the US population is black.

Despite the ~60 percent difference in population numbers, nearly the same amount of white people and black people were killed while unarmed.

Your "logical" conclusion is because of more black people being directly linked to more violent crimes.

All of the shootings you are referring to, the victims were unarmed and possibly innocent. So, what does the "Violent Crimes" point of view argument have to do with it? other than justifying the shootings because of the color of skin...

[Crown Royal]

Looks like more and more of the good ole boys are coming out of the woodwork.

[LeatherFace]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Reallocate and defund have the same meaning. If you “reallocate” funds, the division losing a portion of that funding has been “defunded”. If you’re hung up on that point alone, maybe get over it. “Reallocate police funding” doesn’t have the same ring. Nor does “Remember that black lives matter as well!” Then again, you could make this same argument for pretty much any press headline ever written, and you need to actually dive into the substance to understand what anyone is trying to say. That isn’t a new concept.

Who cares about how it sounds if it doesn't convey your message? 'Reallocate Police Funds' sounds fine and its more clear as to what you want. Also hearing about what some protesters want and I hope its just some, they keep talking about literally getting rid of police forces and prisons instead of reforming them. Now that's just plain DUMB.

As for the racism problems in Toronto Police Sevices, here a recent report from the Ontario Human Rights Commission: http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/public-inte...mination-black

I don't believe anything this organisation puts out because its literally the most corrupt, biased, unfair, unbalance, narrative driven organisation EVER. What a colossal waste of taxpayer money to have this POS organization exist. Maybe a long time ago it might've served a purpose, but now all it ever does is release information and studies that never tell the whole story and ignore any facts and statistics that might explain the outcomes that they find. You'd be better off abolishing this useless department and redirected the funds to help at risk communities and it would actually benefit those people more than whatever pointless crap the OHRC put out to justify its existence.

Black people were over-represented in use of force cases (28.8%), shootings (36%), deadly encounters (61.5%) and fatal shootings (70%). Black men make up 4.1% of Toronto’s population, yet were complainants in a quarter of SIU cases alleging sexual assault by TPS officers.

Between 2013 and 2017, a Black person was far more likely than a White person to be involved in an incident involving Toronto Police use of force that resulted in serious injury or death. A Black person was:

- 3.1 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a SIU investigation
- 3.6 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police use of force case
- 4.9 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police shooting that resulted in serious civilian injury or death
- 11.3 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police use of force case that resulted in civilian death
- 19.5 times more likely than a White person to be involved in a police shooting that resulted in civilian death.

So pretty much all this supports the fact that black people in the GTA are far more violent and criminal than anyone else, which leads to more police interactions and considering these are violent criminals, I seriously doubt they like cooperating with police in a peaceful manner which means they're more likely to have violent interactions with police. Seems pretty simple and doesn't look to have much to do with racism or one race/ethnic group of people being treated better than any other simply based on skin color.

Although there were more allegations of Black people (41.7%) resisting arrest than White people (25.5%), White people were more likely to have a criminal record (54.5%) and to have allegedly threatened or attacked police (61.8%) than Black people (44.4% – criminal record; 44.4% – threatened or attacked police).

What kind of criminal record are we talking about? I seriously doubt that there are more white people with violent criminal records especially to do with guns than black people having violent criminal records where violent crimes and murder are involved.

In Toronto in 2014 they had 177 shootings for the ENTIRE YEAR. In 2019 they had a historic record setting 490 shootings and this year Toronto is 33 shootings AHEAD OF YEAR'S PACE. I think everyone knows who's committing the vast majority of shootings here so I would love to see how many black criminals have a record with violent crimes involved in comparison to white people and I bet it will be much higher. I think that matters more than simply saying 'more white people have a criminal record'.

61.8% of white people resisting arrest threatened or attacked police but they were 3-4 times more likely to be arrested without injury, and 11-19 times LESS likely to be choked or shot to death by police.

But how can we definitively say this is 100% race related and not have other factors be involved? Also take a look here where out of 461 fatal encounters with police in Canada between 2000-2017 only 43 or so people killed by police were black. So 43 deaths of black people in 17 years for ALL of Canada where 10 of them were unarmed. For Toronto specifically its 19 black people killed by Toronto police over 17 years.

That's not nothing, but that's pretty damn far from being an epidemic don't you think?

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/long...m/deadly-force

In Toronto/GTA there's definitely more than 19 black people being murdered here every single year and yet somehow that's seen as a low priority problem that groups like BLM don't think is worth their time and can't get even a fraction of the protests and attention that supposed rampant police brutality and killing of black people do.

BLM had a protest today against police brutality and 'anti-black racism' even as less than 12 hours ago there were 3 shootings in the city including ever increasing numbers of drive-by shootings and highway shootings yet somehow police brutality and supposed racism against them is the biggest problem black people need to deal with right now?

They literally just arrested three16 year old boys that tried to murder two people and THAT'S not a problem they should be tackling first?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rant-1.5703190

More shootings than ever and more underaged kids who haven't even reached adulthood who are committing serious violent crimes and murders and they think police and racism are the problem??!

30% of police calls that resulted in serious injury or death were mental health calls. Clearly this is worthy of having its own division to deal with these matters.

I agree. I would be in favor of having some mental health professionals be available to handle mental health calls so that police don't have to do it.

[LeatherFace]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

WTF are you talking about? Asian, middle eastern kids are over represented in gangs in Toronto at nearly the same rate as Black kids. Black kids are no more likely to be involved in crime than other ethnic groups. But you should ask cops in TO why they chose to card black people at about a 3 x's rate as compared to other ethnic groups when they had free reign to ID anyone they wanted to for no reason. Then ask prosecutors and judges why sentences for Black convicts are harsher than for Whites with similar records. But yeah...what's systemic racism indeed.

Where are you talking about because that sure as hell ain't true in Toronto. Almost all the shootings there are committed by black males and they're on a new record setting pace this year after having a historic record 490 shootings last year.

I'm not saying there aren't possibly gangs that involve asians, arabs, whites etc., but if there are they sure as hell aren't shooting up the city and stabbing people the way that black males are in Toronto. And they sure as hell aren't having their underage kids going out and trying to murder people and commit other violent crimes because our justice system IS A JOKE that doesn't punish these people properly.

Also doesn't Calgary/Edmonton have some issues with black gangs? And I think I've read of some issues in Ottawa too.

And carding is just a STUPID ISSUE that black people always like to complain about but they can't seem to understand that that mostly has to do with the high amounts of crime and violence they commit. I would be in favor of removing carding completely and then see what else black people will complain about when it does nothing to lower their crime rates and make their communities safer.