[Trade] Toronto trades Kasperi Kapanen to Pittsburgh

[David Struch]

On the flip side, the Flames certainly look to be turning it around lately though, this could turn out to be Calgary's best 7 year stretch of drafting ever...

2019 Jakob Pelletier, Ilya Nikolaev, Dustin Wolf
2018 Martin Pospisil, Emilio Pettersen, Dmitry Zavgorodniy
2017 Juuso Välimäki, Adam Ruzicka
2016 Matthew Tkachuk, Tyler Parsons, Dillon Dubé, Adam Fox, Eetu Tuulola, Matthew Phillips
2015 Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, Andrew Mangiapane
2014 Sam Bennett
2013 Sean Monahan

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I completely agree with FW's notion about draft pick quantity. The flip side of this same issue is how absolutely terrible the Flames drafting has been for decades.

Since picking Gary Roberts at #12 in 1984, here is who the Flames organization has selected with their first available pick each year:

Spoiler!

Pick Name NHLgp
17 Biotti 0
16 Pelawa 0
19 Deasley 0
21 Muzzatti 62
24 Kent Manderville 646 (0 with the Flames; included in Gilmour trade)
11 Kidd 387
19 Sundblad 2
6 Stillman 1025
18 Mattsson 0
19 Dingman 385
20 Gauthier 554
13 Morris 1107
6 Tkaczuk 19
6 Fata 230
11 Saprykin 324
9 Krahn 1
14 Kobasew 601
10 Nystrom
9 Phaneuf 1048
24 Chucko 2
26 Pelech 13
26 Irving 13
24 Backlund 690+
25 Nemisz 15
23 Erixon 93
64 Reinhart 23
13 Baertschi 291+
21 Jankowski 208+

6 Monahan
4 Bennett
53 Andersson
6 Tkachuk
16 Valimaki
105 Popisil
26 Pelletier

Regardless of what circumstances lead this being their highest draft pick in a year, I find it hard to believe that any team’s amateur scouting has a worse track record in making their most important decision each year.

28 years between Roberts and Monahan = Stillman, Phaneuf, Backlund, Morris, and 24 varying levels of disappointment.

I am way too lazy to do the foot work, but I imagine this has to be the worst, or pretty close to the worst, record of 1st round draft picks in the NHL. Games played is not a perfect stat for this comparison, but probably the easiest to give you a rough idea.

It does seem like there are fewer 1st round busts all around than there used to be though. I think scouting has become more sophisticated and there is more high end talent available now than there used to be even 15 years ago.

[Weirdness]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I completely agree with FW's notion about draft pick quantity. The flip side of this same issue is how absolutely terrible the Flames drafting has been for decades.

Since picking Gary Roberts at #12 in 1984, here is who the Flames organization has selected with their first available pick each year:

Pick Name NHLgp
...
16 Pelawa 0
...



Regardless of what circumstances lead this being their highest draft pick in a year, I find it hard to believe that any team’s amateur scouting has a worse track record in making their most important decision each year.

28 years between Roberts and Monahan = Stillman, Phaneuf, Backlund, Morris, and 24 varying levels of disappointment.

I'm sorry but you can't include George Pelawa on this list. The man died in a car accident before training camp even started after he was drafted. That's like saying Luc Bourdon was a bust because he didn't reach 100 games.

We'll never know if he would have been a good player or not, but to simply look at his total games played and saying it was bad scouting/drafting is just.... off base.

Edit: I do agree with your overall point though. Damn I wish Irving panned out

[David Struch]

I don't think the Flames have ever had this many of their own drafted players on the team at one time.

Juuso Välimäki
Adam Ruzicka (was in the bubble)
Matthew Tkachuk
Dillon Dubé
Matthew Phillips (was in the bubble)
Rasmus Andersson
Oliver Kylington
Andrew Mangiapane
Sam Bennett
Sean Monahan
Mark Jankowski
Jon Gillies (was in the bubble)
Johnny Gaudreau
T.J. Brodie
Mikael Backlund

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Weirdness

I'm sorry but you can't include George Pelewa on this list. The man died in a car accident before training camp even started after he was drafted. That's like saying Luc Bourdon was a bust because he didn't reach 100 games.

We'll never know if he would have been a good player or not, but to simply look at his total games played and saying it was bad scouting/drafting is just.... off base.

Edit: I do agree with your overall point though. Damn I wish Irving panned out

TIL (I think I vaguely knew of that incident, but didn't associate a name with it).

Injuries (and other unforeseen issues) are a legitimate 'excuse' for some of these, but it applies to every other team, too.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by David Struch

I don't think the Flames have ever had this many of their own drafted players on the team at one time.

Juuso Välimäki
Adam Ruzicka (was in the bubble)
Matthew Tkachuk
Dillon Dubé
Matthew Phillips (was in the bubble)
Rasmus Andersson
Oliver Kylington
Andrew Mangiapane
Sam Bennett
Sean Monahan
Mark Jankowski
Jon Gillies (was in the bubble)
Johnny Gaudreau
T.J. Brodie
Mikael Backlund

And only 4 of them are 1st rounders.

As bad as the Flames are in the 1st round, they do seem to have a decent history of drafting players in later rounds. Maybe a product of having good scouts, but a lousy GM, since the GMs often put their foot down in the 1st round or 2, then let the scouts hash it out after that as GMs have little time during the season to watch kids play.

[Sylvanfan]

As for this actual deal, I think Pittsburgh has paid a pretty high price for Kapenen. But Crosby, Letand and Malkin are getting older, so they should be looking to add to the team as they can now to try and go for it. Three years from now, those guys might be too old to be able to keep leading the team past the first round.

[Weirdness]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

TIL (I think I vaguely knew of that incident, but didn't associate a name with it).

Injuries (and other unforeseen issues) are a legitimate 'excuse' for some of these, but it applies to every other team, too.

It's all good. His name just jumped out at me and made me remember a "what could have been" feature CBC or Sportsnet did like... 10 years ago


But as other posters have pointed out, it does seem like Flames drafting has improved recently. The trend needs to continue though, and so I feel like the Flames need to get more picks and not trade them away at every trade deadline in the hopes of "winning it all" with a few depth additions.

[united]

Holy cow is that ever a haul for the Maple Leafs for a one-dimensional second line winger. Granted the Crosby effect should prop him up substantially, plus his speed - going one way, anyway - will fit in well. Great job by Dubas with this one, though I suspect it fell into his lap more than anything. Hallander isn't just a throw-in either, he's a legit prospect - around the caliber of Matthew Phillips in Flames terms (not in style, but outright "cupboard" rank).

I understand the Penguins going for it again, too. Nothing to lose now. But you think surely they could've gotten a better player back for that package with a bit more patience.

[David Struch]

The '04 Flames probably had the least amount of contributing draft choices for a Stanley Cup Finalist.

They only had...

Chris Clark 26gp 3g 6pts
Oleg Saprykin 26gp 3g 6pts
Matthew Lombardi 13gp 1g 6pts
Denis Gauthier 6gp 0g 1pts
Chuck Kobasew 26gp 0g 1pts
Toni Lydman 6gp 0g 1pts

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

And only 4 of them are 1st rounders.

As bad as the Flames are in the 1st round, they do seem to have a decent history of drafting players in later rounds. Maybe a product of having good scouts, but a lousy GM, since the GMs often put their foot down in the 1st round or 2, then let the scouts hash it out after that as GMs have little time during the season to watch kids play.

Every 1st rounder we've had since Treliving was GM is on that list you quoted except for Pelletier.

2014 - Bennett
2015 - None
2016 - Tkachuk
2017 - Valimaki
2018 - None

[transplant99]

Jim Rutherford has now drafted Sami Kapanen, traded Sami Kapanen, drafted Kasperi Kapanen, traded Kasperi Kapanen, and traded for Kasperi Kapanen.

[powderjunkie]

Chris Kunitz wasn’t even in the NHL until he was 24.

Pascal Dupuis’ early years don’t look too different from Kapanen so far.

He doesn’t have to be a stud to be an effective winger for the Pens.


Could the Pens have gotten someone better for that package? Maybe...though not too many guys come to mind who should be ready to immediately contribute at that AAV AND have team control for long enough that they can likely recover assets for the next rebuild.


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[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I excluded top 10 picks for all teams in that view. The point is you need to be able to draft well outside of the top 10 to be able to become an elite team in the NHL.

Maybe you meant to, but you didn't, that's all I am saying.
Seguin was first overall and Hamilton was 9th overall.

Also, by doing this, it is taking out the idea of where the team finished. I.e. St. Louis hits on Schwartz and Tarasenko in 2010 at 14 & 16, but that was where their picks landed, so it seems somewhat arbitrary to draw the line at 10, but then not actually draw the line at 10...

Finally, I think we all agree hitting on later round picks is key, which is why picks like Ferland, Gaudreau and Kulak are hugely positive, while picks like Mason McDonald, Hunter Smith and Brandon Hickey are hugely negative.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

Maybe you meant to, but you didn't, that's all I am saying.
Seguin was first overall and Hamilton was 9th overall.

Also, by doing this, it is taking out the idea of where the team finished. I.e. St. Louis hits on Schwartz and Tarasenko in 2010 at 14 & 16, but that was where their picks landed, so it seems somewhat arbitrary to draw the line at 10, but then not actually draw the line at 10...

Finally, I think we all agree hitting on later round picks is key, which is why picks like Ferland, Gaudreau and Kulak are hugely positive, while picks like Mason McDonald, Hunter Smith and Brandon Hickey are hugely negative.

The general idea is you need to draft well, and accumulate picks even when you are a playoff team or close to it. That's what teams like Boston, St.Louis, and Washington have been able to do. All those teams have been playoff teams for the majority of the last decade, and still been able to add depth via the draft even when not drafting in the top 10. So that's where the top 10 limitation came in. I guess I could have went 14 and set the break point at the playoff/lottery line.

Seguin and Hamilton were included as a bit of an exception since they weren't picks that Boston "tanked" into getting.

They were extra draft assets they added via a trade. So I think it was fair to include them since it wasn't the normal tank to a "top 10" pick.

Their own picks in those drafts would have sat at 15 and 30 respectively, so it's a bit different when you are playoff team/cup winner and drafting top 10 just because you made a shrewd trade to accumulate more draft assets.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Every 1st rounder we've had since Treliving was GM is on that list you quoted except for Pelletier.

2014 - Bennett
2015 - None
2016 - Tkachuk
2017 - Valimaki
2018 - None

The Flames have definitely done better at the first round under Treliving, mainly because they don’t go off script much. Feaster really only was successful on the no-brainer Monahan pick - he somehow managed to scrub on 4 other first round in 3 years.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Flames have definitely done better at the first round under Treliving, mainly because they don’t go off script much. Feaster really only was successful on the no-brainer Monahan pick - he somehow managed to scrub on 4 other first round in 3 years.

But I think the Jankowski pick was the only one of those that was off script. Baertschi, Poirier, and Klimchuk were all picked well within the range of their rankings. Poirier in particular sure looked like a steal through his first three post-draft seasons. It's such a shame he couldn't keep things together off the ice.

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[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by united

Holy cow is that ever a haul for the Maple Leafs for a one-dimensional second line winger. Granted the Crosby effect should prop him up substantially, plus his speed - going one way, anyway - will fit in well. Great job by Dubas with this one, though I suspect it fell into his lap more than anything. Hallander isn't just a throw-in either, he's a legit prospect - around the caliber of Matthew Phillips in Flames terms (not in style, but outright "cupboard" rank).

I understand the Penguins going for it again, too. Nothing to lose now. But you think surely they could've gotten a better player back for that package with a bit more patience.

Cap hit matters too. Kapanen is a decent player. Kapanen at $3.2M cap hit and $2.6M actual cost, is a really good player.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Cap hit matters too. Kapanen is a decent player. Kapanen at $3.2M cap hit and $2.6M actual cost, is a really good player.

For sure but if Treliving makes that same deal for the Flames people here would be pulling their hair out mad. I understand why the Penguins did it but if you are strictly looking at the trade based on assets moving in and out it's an extremely poor trade for the Penguins. You simply don't trade that sort of capital for a decent player.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

For sure but if Treliving makes that same deal for the Flames people here would be pulling their hair out mad. I understand why the Penguins did it but if you are strictly looking at the trade based on assets moving in and out it's an extremely poor trade for the Penguins. You simply don't trade that sort of capital for a decent player.

Flames fans would rightly be mad because we have different issues we have to solve with those assets.

The Pens have specific needs, based on the window they have with Crosby and Malkin. Saying they could have done better is easy, but who are they going to get for that kind of money? Kapanen could easily score 25 goals on the Pens, I don't think that's a stretch at all. And for $2.6M cash, and $3.2M cap hit, that's a really good player.

Having said that, I also like it from Toronto's perspective. They dropped cap and got a first round pick, which suits their needs.

Both teams got what they needed.