Flames Garbage Day Quotes

[Strange Brew]

Yeah the whole body of work doesn’t paint that prettier a picture for the team as a whole. It’s really those first 60 or so games from last season that tell a different story but don’t really know how you conclude those are the real Flames.

[868904]

I’m on the whole play Bennett with Gaudreau bandwagon. I take it even further tho. Assuming you can sign Hall, I do this.

Hall-Monahan-Dube

Play your two fastest guys with your slowest centre. Hall and Dube will generate lots of the rush and Monahan will pick up and garbage. There’s enough size and responsibility on this line to limit get caved in defensively.

Tkachuk-Lindholm-(Phillips/Maroon)

This gives you two options for this line. Tkachuk and Lindholm has some chemistry and they really are two of your better players. I think it’s dumb to play your best centremen on the wing just so he can babysit a defensively inadequate line. Against fast teams, you play Phillips. Against big teams, you play Maroon. Eases Phillips into NHL action and also keeps Maroon fresh for playoffs. Phillips and Lindholm also provide Tkachuk with a similar look to the 3M line. Maroon shouldn’t cost much, I believe he’s making only $700k. Phillips is on entry level.

Lucic-Bennett-Gaudreau

Keep Lucic and Bennett together. I think they benefit each other. Having Lucic gives Bennett more confidence to be the baddest SOB on the ice. Bennett rejuvenates Lucic. The opposition will be too busy keeping their heads attached to their body to worry about Gaudreau.

Mangiapane-Backlund-Gawdin

This is a bit of a checking line as all 3 players are defensively responsible. All 3 will probably penalty killers. Gawdin is kind of a poor mans Tkachuk so this is a a poor mans 3M line. Backlund and Mangiapane on the “4th line” should allow them to feast on other bottom 6 groups.

THere’s enough speed and skill there to play with the likes of Colorado, Vancouver and edmonton but also enough size to play with the likes of St Louis, Dallas and Vegas. Plus you insulate your smallest and softest player with the two biggest and baddest guys on the ice.

On defense, you have to sign a right side defense to play with Gio, the cap hit will have to be in the or under $3 million range. This will probably be the likes of Demelo, Gustafsson, Van Reimsdyk, Gudas, Hamonic, ie the second tier of free agents. The third pair, you let the kiddies play, Kylington and Yelesin are the right side guys and Valimaki and Mackey are the left side guys.

[bubbsy]

Just listened to trelivings radio hit on the fan from yesterday (it's on the fan960 site for a listen).

I gotta say, that was definitely one of the weaker press interviews by our GM I have heard to date. He wasn't articulate, rambled a bunch. I realize he's not going to give much detailed insight, but just the style of answering the questions, weren't up to his typically high standard. Sure feels like he is abundantly clear on the disappointment of the fan base and the pushes for change.

It also feels like Ward is going to be around next season. Just my guess.

[Diemenz]

Originally Posted by 868904

I’m on the whole play Bennett with Gaudreau bandwagon. I take it even further tho. Assuming you can sign Hall, I do this.

Hall-Monahan-Dube

Tkachuk-Lindholm-(Phillips/Maroon)

Lucic-Bennett-Gaudreau

Mangiapane-Backlund-Gawdin

I think you have a good start here but its not feasible to roll equal minutes for 3 lines. This would mean Johnny or another top tier player would be playing 10-12 minutes a night and their performance would be poor.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk could possibly work assuming Hall was signed and then you could roll your suggestions of Hall - Monahan - Dube as Line 2. Just my opinion but I Feel Backlund would be wasted on line 4.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by flambers

If he chooses to make very little changes, similar to last season and if the results are the same...

A change is required at that point....

It bears pointing out that Treliving did not "choose to make very little changes" last season. He consummated a very good deal for a notable upgrade at centre, but the deal fell through because the player invoked his NTC. He certainly deserves scrutiny for not getting some of his deals over the finish line, but Treliving clearly sees the same problems with the team that the rest of us do, and he has been very active in working to correct them.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It bears pointing out that Treliving did not "choose to make very little changes" last season. He consummated a very good deal for a notable upgrade at centre, but the deal fell through because the player invoked his NTC. He certainly deserves scrutiny for not getting some of his deals over the finish line, but Treliving clearly sees the same problems with the team that the rest of us do, and he has been very active in working to correct them.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I keep pointing this out every time somebody complains that Treliving just sits on his hands. The guy clearly knew the C depth wasn't where it needed to be, and he had a deal done for exactly the piece we needed, but he cannot make a player waive his NTC to come here.

He also can't make rival GMs trade a top 6 C whenever he wants them too either.

[ComixZone]

The one thing I’d say in response to the “hey, Treliving tried to do this but it didn’t come to fruition” stance is that our players tried to be better as well, tried to improve their on-ice production etc, but they failed, just like Tree did.

No excuses for Tree, just as there are no excuses for the players. They all need to be significantly better than they have been.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I keep pointing this out every time somebody complains that Treliving just sits on his hands. The guy clearly knew the C depth wasn't where it needed to be, and he had a deal done for exactly the piece we needed, but he cannot make a player waive his NTC to come here.

He also can't make rival GMs trade a top 6 C whenever he wants them too either.

This. People don’t understand how hard it is to get an elite centre. Treliving hasn’t had a realistic chance to draft one. Monahan is still the best player at his draft position, and Bennett was a no brainer, with the next C picked being Larkin at 15th.

No one is trading a top C. And FAs? Aside from Tavares, what top Cs have signed somewhere else?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The one thing I’d say in response to the “hey, Treliving tried to do this but it didn’t come to fruition” stance is that our players tried to be better as well, tried to improve their on-ice production etc, but they failed, just like Tree did.

No excuses for Tree, just as there are no excuses for the players. They all need to be significantly better than they have been.

Do you blame players for getting injured? Because this is a more honestly analogous on-ice comparison to be made to Treliving's Kadri deal.

Or, better yet, you could offer an argument for how Treliving manages to complete the Kadri deal? Or would you have preferred he not bother to make this trade at all?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Do you blame players for getting injured? Because this is a more honestly analogous on-ice comparison to be made to Treliving's Kadri deal.

Or, better yet, you could offer an argument for how Treliving manages to complete the Kadri deal? Or would you have preferred he not bother to make this trade at all?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I don’t agree with that. Tree knows Kadri has an NTC. He negotiated a deal knowing it was there, and assumed Kadri would waive. It’s a worthwhile shot, but it’s not like Tree was surprised by the fact Kadri had an NTC. His mistake to assume he’d waive.

Players getting injured is entirely random. If a player didn’t prepare properly and didn’t stretch/wasn’t doing their prep properly...perhaps I get that argument.

GM’s have to execute the same way players have to execute. The effort is good, and needed. Just like the players who didn’t short change us on effort these playoffs, but rather just failed to execute.

I’m not overly negative on Tree, but am firmly in the “no excuses” camp.

[dino7c]

Calgary is one of the tougher markets to be a GM, it's not an excuse but we must acknowledge that.

Look at Stone and Kadri right now...he obviously evaluated they properly but geography got in the way.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t agree with that. Tree knows Kadri has an NTC. He negotiated a deal knowing it was there, and assumed Kadri would waive. It’s a worthwhile shot, but it’s not like Tree was surprised by the fact Kadri had an NTC. His mistake to assume he’d waive.

So, don't ever make trades for players with NTCs? How is Treliving supposed to know one way or the other what Kadri's feelings are about waiving his trade clause? Unless he has some sort of control over the player's feelings, then I don't accept any criticism of Treliving for the failure of this deal. He did very well with all the elements of it that he could control, which is as much as can or should be required of anyone.

Players getting injured is entirely random...

Is it any more-or-less random than knowing the decisions of individual players with regards to their NTCs before hand? Injuries and trade clauses are completely outside of the control of the player in the first place, and the receiving GM in the second. Perfectly analogous.

GM’s have to execute the same way players have to execute. The effort is good, and needed. Just like the players who didn’t short change us on effort these playoffs, but rather just failed to execute.

In a sense I agree, but credit must also extend to the factors outside of the control groups. For the players, I think we are all now somewhat surprised at the level at which Dallas is presently performing. The Flames had no control over how good a team Dallas would be. Much the same for the GM: he had no control over whether or not Kadri would sign off on this deal. Treliving has made mistakes, but this absolutely is not one of them.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t agree with that. Tree knows Kadri has an NTC. He negotiated a deal knowing it was there, and assumed Kadri would waive. It’s a worthwhile shot, but it’s not like Tree was surprised by the fact Kadri had an NTC. His mistake to assume he’d waive.

Players getting injured is entirely random.

GM’s have to execute the same way players have to execute. The effort is good, and needed. Just like the players who didn’t short change us on effort these playoffs, but rather just failed to execute.

I guess it depends more on how you square expectations with reality, then.

Execution from both a player side and a management side is heavily reliant on luck. Not everything can just be willed to be. With players, it's bounces and other players. What's the puck doing, what's everyone else doing. You can play your game to 100% and nobody can ask more of you, but that doesn't mean you're going to lead the league in scoring or post 20 shutouts.

On the management side, it's players, agents, and other GMs. You can't will everything to happen. You can expect that Kadri might not waive, just as a player might expect another player might not pass, but you just put yourself in the right position and act accordingly. Treliving has proven he puts himself in the right position, at least more often than not. What's going on behind the scenes? We want all-star coaches, do any of them even want to come here? We want to trade Gaudreau for a bag of riches, does anyone want to offer that up? I think as fans, we're probably 80% ignorant of what it takes to build a team and how much it depends on everyone else and everything going right. You look at the trade proposals here, the pining for every 'name' coach, etc (I do it to) but most of it looks like NHL 20 stuff, not real life.

End of the day, though, you're right. Execution does matter. After years of failing to execute, you're going to find yourself out of a job (player or management). But recognizing the context, the effort, or the underlying numbers aren't "excuses." They're what gives you an accurate picture.

You do that for Bennett (a chronic under-producer, but you and I agree he has great underlying stats and benefits from the right situations which he hasn't had), so why not Treliving?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I guess it depends more on how you square expectations with reality, then.

Execution from both a player side and a management side is heavily reliant on luck. Not everything can just be willed to be. With players, it's bounces and other players. What's the puck doing, what's everyone else doing. You can play your game to 100% and nobody can ask more of you, but that doesn't mean you're going to lead the league in scoring or post 20 shutouts.

On the management side, it's players, agents, and other GMs. You can't will everything to happen. You can expect that Kadri might not waive, just as a player might expect another player might not pass, but you just put yourself in the right position and act accordingly. Treliving has proven he puts himself in the right position, at least more often than not. What's going on behind the scenes? We want all-star coaches, do any of them even want to come here? We want to trade Gaudreau for a bag of riches, does anyone want to offer that up? I think as fans, we're probably 80% ignorant of what it takes to build a team and how much it depends on everyone else and everything going right. You look at the trade proposals here, the pining for every 'name' coach, etc (I do it to) but most of it looks like NHL 20 stuff, not real life.

End of the day, though, you're right. Execution does matter. After years of failing to execute, you're going to find yourself out of a job (player or management). But recognizing the context, the effort, or the underlying numbers aren't "excuses." They're what gives you an accurate picture.

You do that for Bennett (a chronic under-producer, but you and I agree he has great underlying stats and benefits from the right situations which he hasn't had), so why not Treliving?

Definitely, it's all very complicated and the GM spot is a very difficult role. I'm not taking a negative path on my assessment of Tree, I just don't think he should necessarily be commended for effort on this almost trade or that almost trade. It's also likely he's had 10 or more almost trades in the last two years we haven't heard about.

I just really do view him the same as our team right now. They're both good, but they're both failing to execute when it really matters. I'm hopeful that the dam is about to burst open on both fronts.

This will be a cool off-season, I'm excited to see how it plays out.

Also, yeah - Calgary isn't the easiest market to be a GM. The fact that we've been on numerous NTC lists and have had numerous failed deals because of them (Kadri, Edler, Simmonds all rumoured to have said no in the last 18 months) also hammers home why I really want this team to sign Taylor Hall. If a talent like that actually is open to signing here, it's big for the team.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It bears pointing out that Treliving did not "choose to make very little changes" last season. He consummated a very good deal for a notable upgrade at centre, but the deal fell through because the player invoked his NTC. He certainly deserves scrutiny for not getting some of his deals over the finish line, but Treliving clearly sees the same problems with the team that the rest of us do, and he has been very active in working to correct them.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

This is analogous to Jiri’s beef when I said Treliving sat on his hands. I should have more accurately said Treliving tried to lift his butt cheeks but was unable to do so and therefore his hands remained firmly planted.

Having a deal not get completed is closer to doing nothing than doing something IMO. But that’s a subjective take and I understand a different view. But to say that Treliving has been very active and clearly sees the same problems is also subjective and requires some amount of faith.

Here’s a question for you. Five frogs are on a log and one decides to jump off. How many are left on the log?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I’m not overly negative on Tree, but am firmly in the “no excuses” camp.

That's my same stance. All these GM's have to deal with these issues.

You get paid and judged for results, not things that didn't end up happening.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Also, yeah - Calgary isn't the easiest market to be a GM. The fact that we've been on numerous NTC lists and have had numerous failed deals because of them (Kadri, Edler, Simmonds all rumoured to have said no in the last 18 months) also hammers home why I really want this team to sign Taylor Hall. If a talent like that actually is open to signing here, it's big for the team.

Winning solves all these problems. I find it hard to believe that if Calgary went on a couple runs and looked to be close to a championship that players and personnel wouldn't be clamouring to be there.

[FanIn80]

#GaudreauLivesMatter

[Flash Walken]

I'm not convinced Kadri NTC was the only obstacle either.

Brodie has one as well and it was as much in his interest to stay with a familiar organization in his final year that was coming off a 2nd place team playing with a Norris trophy partner.

Look what happened to the perceived value of Tyson Barrie after being moved. You think he wouldn't have been better off staying in Colorado?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm not convinced Kadri NTC was the only obstacle either.

Brodie has one as well and it was as much in his interest to stay with a familiar organization in his final year that was coming off a 2nd place team playing with a Norris trophy partner.

Look what happened to the perceived value of Tyson Barrie after being moved. You think he wouldn't have been better off staying in Colorado?

It was reported afterwards that Toronto was not on TJ's NTC, but that he added Toronto after the rumoured trade fell apart.

Originally Posted by Igottago

Winning solves all these problems. I find it hard to believe that if Calgary went on a couple runs and looked to be close to a championship that players and personnel wouldn't be clamouring to be there.

I definitely agree. Winning is a big draw.