Sam Bennett at center - Why I Do Not Believe It Was A Failure

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Why do we keep trying to trade Ryan? All he does is make our team better. He helped regain Lucic’s confidence back, got Dube on another level in his game. It was because of Ryan that the Lucic - Bennett - Dube line already had 2/3 members clicking, all Bennett needed to do now was play his game. And he did, and we saw a dominant line. That was because of Ryan. He also made the 4th line a decent thing to watch when we’d ice freaking Rinaldo with him.

If anyone in the top 9 goes now next season, it would be nice to just have Ryan slot right in. He’s our new Swiss Army knife needed when an injury or player falters.

Ryan is good for what he is and his contract is great for his production, but I think the worry is that he'll produce less on the 4th line, which might make him expensive.

Solid value though. If you don't need to trade him for cap reasons, there's zero reason to trade him.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Bennett just isn't a smart hockey player. He's a bang and crash and pray you get a dirty rebound goal type of player. You want smart, responsible, cerebral people a C. For that reason alone, I much prefer him on the wing. It's nice that he can win faceoffs. Have him do that on his strong hand in the offensive zone, and then swap back to wing after the draw.

So you completely disregard the stats that say he is a capable center playing usually with garbage?

[Enoch Root]

Bennett had a torn tricep for most of the playoffs. Despite that fact, he ranked:

1st for goals
T1 for points
T1 is even strength goals
T1 in even strength points
1st in +/-

despite being 13th in TOI, 7th among forwards.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by New Era

Seriously? You don't understand why anyone would be skeptical of this based on history? For all the crying going on around here about wanting the team to get better, including jettisoning the top players on the team, there are an awful lot of people who are willing to ignore YEARS of bad play from Sam Bennett because of a few games in a really weird playoff tournament, and promote him into positions that he has shown he is incapable of playing.

You supposedly coach. Do you not learn from past player behavior, or do you allow the same players to go out game-after-game and hurt your team? At some point you learn, and you maintain a very healthy level of skepticism about those players. They may get on string where they play well, but you keep them on a short leash looking for the first hint of previous behaviors and attempt to curb them. I am all for giving a player some latitude, but when does that same guy ####ting the bed and contributing to a dud finally make you wake up and say enough is enough? That's where we are IMO. It's go time, and Sam Bennett better show up at training camp ready to play this exact same way or the Flames would be way better off moving on from him. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Bennett is going on opportunity three. He better perform.

My big question for the Bennett Bros, what happens if he comes to camp and is the same old Sam Bennett? At a time when this team is need of change are you willing to gamble that Bennett is capable of playing at this level the majority of the time? Because if he plays as he has each of the past four seasons, he's not going to move the needle and the team remains stagnant. There is risk with every decision, and is this risk the team can accept and you're willing to accept? I see next year as Bennett's make or break with the Flames. He either performs, or he's traded early to some other team who hopes they can reclaim a player. Is that something you can accept?

Some of the things you bring up cant even pass a logic test dude. On your own team you have an example of a player that didnt hit his stride until mid 20 but somehow this 23 year old is absolutely what he is?

The stats say he is a good depth center at 23 playing with garbage or are the stats wrong?
He has the one thing damn near every flames fan is choking up right now and thats a desire to go out and win, but we should get rid of him to improve the team?

Have we not watched enough guys over the last 2 decades walk out of here at 22 23 doomed as NHL failures only to go on and have good long careers?

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Bennett had a torn tricep for most of the playoffs. Despite that fact, he ranked:

1st for goals
T1 for points
T1 is even strength goals
T1 in even strength points
1st in +/-

despite being 13th in TOI, 7th among forwards.

Not only that, but over the past 3 years, among Flames players who've played at least a full season worth of games, Bennett at 5v5 during the regular season ranks:

- 1st in ixGF/60 (0.8)
- 1st in iSCF/60 (9.16)
- 3rd in iHDCF/60 (4.29)

That despite playing with garbage most of the time.

He deserves a much better opportunity.

[Enoch Root]

He also led the team in hits, despite the injury.

And last season he was 3rd in hits and 2nd in hits/60 among regulars/

[Classic_Sniper]

I truly believe the key to Bennett’s success in the playoffs and especially this years is style of play.

I’ve said it here before that I think Sam Bennett is at his best when he plays a north-south game where he’s dumping pucks in and hitting guys to create havoc on the forecheck. In the regular season, he gets into trouble playing east-west, turning over the puck and taking bad offensive zone penalties because of it.

But when he’s playing simple hockey, dumping pucks in, separating players from the puck, driving to the net and getting gritty like Tkachuk does, then he’s playing his most apt style. I think playing with Lucic and Dube helped a lot too because having that big body he can cycle with or having that dynamic speedster who can make plays out of nothing just seems like perfect line mates for him. I look forward to seeing if this line can transition their chemistry into the regular season.

[Enoch Root]

I want to see Bennett and Dube show up for the regular season with full playoff lettuce

[JJolg]

It took until now for them to realize he has a one time shot, no wonder things haven't worked out as planned

[Calgary4LIfe]

Bennett absolutely should be pencilled-in as the 3rd line centre to start the season - and keep him there for a very lengthy time at least.


Unless there is an injury/trade, I don't think he should be elevated beyond the 3rd line centre. Just let him develop his skills, and hopefully develop some chemistry with some players as a centre as well.


Ideally, you want him to continue to develop and push out the centres above him in the lineup. Some people are down on Monahan, but he is unquestionably the most offensive centre in the organization. Backlund has done nothing at all to make anyone think he isn't slotted correctly as the #2 centre.


IMO, I do think if the Flames are patient with Bennett and give him the opportunity to succeed - even if he has a bad stretch of games as basically every other player in the NHL does - then I think Bennett will reward you. It won't surprise me if he starts putting a tonne of pressure on the centres ahead of him over time. Maybe this season, maybe the next - but that's a good thing. Flames just need to give him some patience as a centre.


There was not a single player contributing to 'winning' more than Bennett did in the playoffs, and players like him are usually infectious. He could very well end up becoming Calgary's future captain if things pan out well. He doesn't have to be Calgary's best player, but I can definitely see him eventually taking the C over in time.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by New Era

Just a reminder of a major deficiency for Bennett. Faceoff winning percentages in his 9 games of awesomeness. 28.3% OZ, 50.0% NZ, 46.2 DZ For comparison, Monahan: 59.3% OZ, 51.9% NZ, 57.1 DZ. Lucic: 72.2% OZ, 33.3% NZ, 87.5 DZ.

The player who was playing through... a torn triceps? Yes. Right.

Not the 258W-229L (53.0%) he's been on faceoffs on those regular season games you claim he's so useless during.

Originally Posted by New Era

You don't understand why anyone would be skeptical of this based on history? For all the crying going on around here about wanting the team to get better, including jettisoning the top players on the team, there are an awful lot of people who are willing to ignore YEARS of bad play from Sam Bennett because of a few games in a really weird playoff tournament, and promote him into positions that he has shown he is incapable of playing.

It isn't years of bad play from Sam Bennett.

It's years of poor counting statistics, which aren't always indicative of poor individual play, because counting statistics are a team statistic.

I am all for giving a player some latitude, but when does that same guy ####ting the bed and contributing to a dud finally make you wake up and say enough is enough?

IF... the player is actually "####ting the bed" sure.

And I suppose someone such as yourself who makes evaluations solely on counting statistics and cherry-picked faceoff stats, that's "####ting the bed"

For the rest of us - that's never been clear, and much of the observed play has directly counteracted that.

Bennett's been the best player on his line in:

2016-17 playoffs
2017-18
2018-19
2018-19 playoffs
2019-20
2019-20 playoffs

He's been the second best player on his line in:

2014-15 playoffs
2015-16
2016-17

He's been the worst player on his line in:

No single season of his career. Even in 2015-16, when you could debate Frolik was the better player, you're comparing a top six veteran in his absolute prime to a 19 year old rookie straight out of junior.

He's been effective on special teams when used on them.

In 2015-16, he was fifth among the team's forwards in PP points.

In 2016-17, Gulutzan elected to go with the veteran Frolik over Bennett on the PP, but that powerplay unit's success was due to Tkachuk, Backlund, Giordano, and Hamilton, not the absence of Bennett.

Bennett found himself back on the PP unit... during the playoffs. He didn't magically elevate his game - he was finally put in a position to succeed. He scored a PP goal during those playoffs.

Also in 2016-17, Bennett was a key part of a strong PK unit. So much so that articles were written online praising his PKing.

In 2017-18, Bennett, Bennett's linemates, and everyone else on the team struggled with finish. But finish is a fickle thing, and his shooting percentages simply hit rock bottom that year. It was a one-off year, simple as that.

In 2018-19 Bennett had six powerplay points in 110:28. This during a season where PP2 quarterback Mikael Backlund had two powerplay points in 127:10. This team isn't the meritocracy you seem to think it is.

My big question for the Bennett Bros, what happens if he comes to camp and is the same old Sam Bennett?

Funny you mention camp. Bennett has been here six years, and every year he dominates preseason to the point where it looks like he's earned an opportunity. This dates back to his 18 year old season centering Gaudreau and Ferland, but it's been pretty consistent on a yearly basis.

His RS struggles come because this team isn't a meritocracy. His strong play in camp has been rewarded with... game 1 opening linemates like... Troy Brouwer. Zac Rinaldo. Mason Raymond. To say nothing of some of the other superstars he's found himself dragging around over the years... Jankowski, Lazar, Bouma, Neal, Rieder, Chiasson, etc. The best player he played with was like a 46 year old Jagr.

At a time when this team is need of change are you willing to gamble that Bennett is capable of playing at this level the majority of the time?

I am willing to gamble on it.

Because if he plays as he has each of the past four seasons, he's not going to move the needle and the team remains stagnant.

You've got your causation mixed up.

if the team remains stagnant of their usage of him as they have in the past four seasons, he, nor anyone else, would move the needle.

There is risk with every decision, and is this risk the team can accept and you're willing to accept?

A team with championship aspirations taking their best player in the playoffs and investing in that player's development by giving him opportunity he continually earns yet never receives due to veteran biases and counting stat biases? Giving him icetime proportionate to his playoff dominance, so that you can get more of that? Giving him linemates that he doesn't have to constantly carry every shift?

Yeah, I'm ####ing willing to accept that. I'll even miss the playoffs. The Avs invested in Nathan MacKinnon. They traded away Matt Duchene and said that they'd win or lose with the player worth investing in. And they finished Dead ####ing Last.

That sucks.

But it wasn't permanent. Not only did that year help MacKinnon develop to his potential, it got them Cale Makar. That's how you build a contender.

By investing in the players worth investing in.

Even if Sam Bennett were not a 4th overall pick, the fact that he's our best forward in virtually every playoff series, despite limited icetime, is enough reason to see him as worth investing in.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Why do we keep trying to trade Ryan? All he does is make our team better. He helped regain Lucic’s confidence back, got Dube on another level in his game. It was because of Ryan that the Lucic - Bennett - Dube line already had 2/3 members clicking, all Bennett needed to do now was play his game. And he did, and we saw a dominant line. That was because of Ryan. He also made the 4th line a decent thing to watch when we’d ice freaking Rinaldo with him.

If anyone in the top 9 goes now next season, it would be nice to just have Ryan slot right in. He’s our new Swiss Army knife needed when an injury or player falters.

Though they are not the same kind of player at all, Bennett and Ryan are fighting for the same roster spot in my eyes (3rd line C). I think both are basically a waste on the 4th line.

As such, I'd 100% rather the flames give Bennett the spot the entire year next year to either flourish or to not (and then cut bait).

The one thing I will say is that the magic bean, the player that magically made that 3rd line work regardless of who was at C (Ryan or Bennett) was Dube. He's going to be a top 6 forward by next season. I have little doubt in that. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 1st line player down the road either.

[Harry Lime]

What are the general thoughts on the movement of Monahan for futures, and running with Backlund-Bennett-Ryan-New Guy as the centre depth, for the season.

With the understanding that one of the return items from Monahan/Johnny is a future #1 centre candidate.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think people are being light on Hall's contract. I think he's 9-9.5M

If that is what it is, I wouldn’t be interested. Not saying he is or isn’t worth it, but the only way I am taking a run Hall at him is if there is somewhat of a hometown discount.
Term is also important, but nothing over a cap hit of 8 for sure.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

What are the general thoughts on the movement of Monahan for futures, and running with Backlund-Bennett-Ryan-New Guy as the centre depth, for the season.

With the understanding that one of the return items from Monahan/Johnny is a future #1 centre candidate.

All for it. I am secretly hoping for a swap with buffalo that sees Monahan play 2nd line C behind Eichel, and the flames pick up Cozens.

Backlund
Bennett
Cozens
Ryan

I literally don't give a crap if the flames suck next year, as long as their is an actual strategy on how to improve long term. Enough with the short sided management from the Calgary Flames already!

[djsFlames]

So you think it's a guarantee Cozens turns out a better nhl C than monahan eh.

Decent chance he will be but not a slam dunk.

If you're trading a sure thing for potential then you best be acquiring multiple shots at the board. Need to be smart and not bank on the potential of one guy. Need to load up the organizational center pool to maximize the probability of having a really good one, or a couple coming down the pipe.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

So you think it's a guarantee Cozens turns out a better nhl C than monahan eh.

Decent chance he will be but not a slam dunk.

If you're trading a sure thing for potential then you best be acquiring multiple shots at the board. Need to be smart and not bank on the potential of one guy. Need to load up the organizational center pool to maximize the probability of having a really good one, or a couple coming down the pipe.

Definitely not a slam dunk that cozens will be a #1 center or not, of if he'll even b we as good as monahan is.

No one is trading a sure thing top center. Any shot at getting the top line center that has eluded this franchise for 25 years will by chance (draft or trading for a prospect).

Cozens is a higher probability mystery box than any flames roster player, prospect or the 19th overall pick this draft.

But your point is valid, more lottery balls are needed. So treliving needs to stop trading first and second round picks for dmen that aren't a fit, aren't good enough or for ahl calibre forwards (Lazar).

[Harry Lime]

Whether it's Monahan or JG, or both, I expect one of two outcomes. Either it's a high end player as a target, in which case I'm ok with anything approaching a 1 for 1, or even Calgary adds.

Scenario two is filling holes for all organizational weaknesses. For example, if there is a trade with Buffalo, I would want Cozens, 2nd round pick, Casey Middlestadt and Colin Miller. One stop shop.

Having Bennett as the #3 centre for the whole season is a no-brainer (if JG is traded). Having Bennett as the #2 centre for the whole season is a gamble (if Monahan is traded), but might be well worth it if he is dropped to the third line in the second year, pushed there by a better player. Bennett would have a wealth of experience, and the depth would be all the greater.

[CliffFletcher]

I'm skeptical Bennett can translate his playoff success into being a productive 2C or 3C over a full season.

Most of his goals were scored with a ferocious forecheck and by crashing and banging around the net. It's extremely difficult to maintain that kind of relentlessness for 82 games.

The game is refereed differently in the playoffs vs regular season. Bennett would take a couple minors a game if he played that way all the time.

The role of an NHL center is to maintain possession of the puck, use vision and smarts distribute it to wingers, and backcheck down low when he doesn't have the puck. Bennett still doesn't do those things. He's still not a very good passer, and he's not great without the puck.

You have to ask yourself why a guy with his wheels, who plays in the bottom 6, has not been entrusted to kill penalties. It's because his anticipation, patience, and discipline are lacking.

He's fun guy to watch, and his style of play is well-suited to the compressed intensity of the playoffs. But I just don't see him as a line-driving NHL centre.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm skeptical Bennett can translate his playoff success into being a productive 2C or 3C over a full season.

Most of his goals were scored with a ferocious forecheck and by crashing and banging around the net. It's extremely difficult to maintain that kind of relentlessness for 82 games.

The game is refereed differently in the playoffs vs regular season. Bennett would take a couple minors a game if he played that way all the time.

The role of an NHL center is to maintain possession of the puck, use vision and smarts distribute it to wingers, and backcheck down low when he doesn't have the puck. Bennett still doesn't do those things. He's still not a very good passer, and he's not great without the puck.

You have to ask yourself why a guy with his wheels, who plays in the bottom 6, has not been entrusted to kill penalties. It's because his anticipation, patience, and discipline are lacking.

He's fun guy to watch, and his style of play is well-suited to the compressed intensity of the playoffs. But I just don't see him as a line-driving NHL centre.

You think an NHL centre who can’t maintain possession of the puck, has no smarts and vision to distribute the puck, doesn’t back check and is not great without the puck, and lack anticipation, patience, and discipline... just forechecked his way to 5 goals and 8 points in 10 games in the playoffs? Like *poof* anyone with an aggressive forecheck can run along at a 40 goal pace in the NHL?

Alright. Interesting take.

I will say, I think most people would be happy to see Bennett play a similar game, not even the same, and become a 20-20 guy. That’d be a big step up. I don’t think anyone is looking for the second coming. Bennett is a grinder who has some fantastic offensive pedigree. He’s good on faceoffs, good in the middle, and is underrated across the board.

Anyways, I find some people insistence on the regular season pretty funny. He excelled when the games mattered, but this tweet summed it up for me:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1298328805589659648?s=20