Should/Will the Flames keep Ward

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Hartley's time with the Flames is romanticized because he got them to win a round, which is very rare around these parts, and always had a clever quip for the media.
But he was a bully and I don't have much time for people like that.
Doesn't mean Tre has made the right choices since. But just because he chose the wrong next coach, doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision to fire Hartley.

I'm not going to comment on the locker room stuff, as I have no real knowledge of the rumours on that front. But fans, CP were getting pretty sick of the hail Mary stretch pass strategy, with forwards just blowing the zone. But fact that he got more out of basically the same core than the numerous guys after him, puts him on an unwarranted pedestal for sure.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Hartley's time with the Flames is romanticized because he got them to win a round, which is very rare around these parts, and always had a clever quip for the media.
But he was a bully and I don't have much time for people like that.
Doesn't mean Tre has made the right choices since. But just because he chose the wrong next coach, doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision to fire Hartley.

Yeah, my thoughts as well. Which is why I hate the Peters hiring as much as I do. Just a garbage hire after a flawed hiring process - and looking beyond the Akim Aliu news, the players had pretty visibly quit on him to start this season - which is also why I understand Tree's stance of publicly backing the coach (prior to the Aliu news of course). He put it back on the players, which I agree with the idea of, although in this case it was a mistake because he backed a bad coach.

Gulutzan was a poor hire but I understand the rationale of switching gears to a "players coach" after Hartley, unfortunate that he was such an ineffective/poor head coach because he was a genuinely superb guy by the sounds of it (I've heard a few side stories from people who had dealings with him outside of the sport).

This next hiring is huge for Treliving. He has to get it right, and while Geoff Ward may be a great guy, I don't think he's made for the head coaching position (he's gone awfully late into his career before transitioning even to an interim title). Although, he is such a good guy that if we do go back with him I won't hate it so long as the roster has been we-worked hugely. This roster + Ward is a deal breaker for me.

[Sandman]

Hartley was a bully for sure, but the style of play he employs (pond hockey) is not sustainable in the current NHL. That's the true reason he won't ever get a job in this league again.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Hartley was a bully for sure, but the style of play he employs (pond hockey) is not sustainable in the current NHL. That's the true reason he won't ever get a job in this league again.

That's not how he coached all the time. He coached that way here because he was trying to maximize what he had roster-wise, and it clicked perfectly for a season.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by chummer

Yup, heard from a good source Johnny and Mony wouldn't re-sign if Hartley was still the coach.

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You know what? I would like to circle back on this.

So in 2015-16, Johnny was just finishing his second season, where he took a major step, becoming a point per game player. The team had a challenging year, but he saw personal success and growth. Hartley appeared to trust and rely on his top line.

At this point, you have Johnny, on his ELC, and only having known one NHL coach. Two seasons ...

<snip>

I don’t see these two guys as having the career confidence and ego for this story to hang together

I will circle back on myself here and look at it from the other side.

(Thanks, chummer)

That was the year both Monny and Johnny were having their second contracts negotiated

Playing for a demanding coach, players will be more eager to look past when they are winning. However, when a team is playing for a demanding coach and losing, they eventually tune out. It has happened to others (also Cup winners) like Hitchcock, Keenan, etc.

Now these guys are RFAs, and they have agents, so what leverage do they have? Not a ton, but their agents sure would be able to dangle term / commitment to the franchise.

Add to that the concept that Tre was a pretty green GM, he was probably dealing with his first player vs. coach challenge, and add in that Bob wasn’t Tre’s guy.

I can see timing wise, with compelling event of both re-signings, that Tre would take the opportunity to make the change


So that’s it. We could have established a choice of players over coach, for the two guys who are now the face of the franchise, and its subsequent perennial embarrassment

#5 all time GM indeed

[the2bears]

Oops, misread the question and voted complete opposite. I think. Don't think they should keep him, don't think they will.

[Itse]

Ward certainly didn't give a great impression in the Dallas series, but on the upside he did have the team playing with fairly consistent effort and without panic. That's not nothing.

I don't think Ward is terrible. I've been saying for a while now that I would love a more proven coach, but we also need a coach that's interested in being here. The top coaches can pick their spots. So if the option is "Ward or some other new guy", I would rather keep Ward and try supporting him with a strong associate coach, someone good with the x and o stuff.



...I would actually love to see someone give Jukka Jalonen a chance in the NHL. He's the guy who coached Finland to surprise gold medals in 2011 and even more memorably in 2019, plus U20 gold in 2016. He's currently employed by the Finnish national team, but I'm sure he could be negotiated out of that.

Jalonen is an interesting combination of a very forward thinking x and o guy, someone who's not afraid of making bold choices and take critique, and who seems to have a knack for turning mid-level players into extremely effective role-players. Players also always seem to be having fun when playing for him.

Would he be good in the NHL? I don't know. He's definitely not a proven guy, but if you can't get a proven guy, I think setting up Jalonen with Ward as his associate would be a good experiment. Or the other way around possibly. (Ward doesn't seem to me like a guy that would have too much ego to work with a better x and o guy than he is.)

I mean sure it would be a risk, but if you're not going to blow up the team, I feel like it would be a risk worth taking. Jalonen at least has a couple of miracles in his track record, specifically with rosters that were short in high-end talent.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I’d rather go for Laviolette or Gallant.

Just not sure who would be a better fit for the squad.

[slash&burn]

Definitely makes sense to kick tires on the big coaching names but if the team leadership/core doesn't change at all for next season, neither will the results.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I just wish we had picked up Vigneault when he was available. He's done quite a fantastic job turning Philly around.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I just wish we had picked up Vigneault when he was available. He's done quite a fantastic job turning Philly around.

Vigneault always seems to wear out his welcome eventually, but his immediate success with virtually every team he has coached is undeniable.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Itse

Ward certainly didn't give a great impression in the Dallas series, but on the upside he did have the team playing with fairly consistent effort and without panic. That's not nothing.

I don't think Ward is terrible. I've been saying for a while now that I would love a more proven coach, but we also need a coach that's interested in being here. The top coaches can pick their spots. So if the option is "Ward or some other new guy", I would rather keep Ward and try supporting him with a strong associate coach, someone good with the x and o stuff.



...I would actually love to see someone give Jukka Jalonen a chance in the NHL. He's the guy who coached Finland to surprise gold medals in 2011 and even more memorably in 2019, plus U20 gold in 2016. He's currently employed by the Finnish national team, but I'm sure he could be negotiated out of that.

Jalonen is an interesting combination of a very forward thinking x and o guy, someone who's not afraid of making bold choices and take critique, and who seems to have a knack for turning mid-level players into extremely effective role-players. Players also always seem to be having fun when playing for him.

Would he be good in the NHL? I don't know. He's definitely not a proven guy, but if you can't get a proven guy, I think setting up Jalonen with Ward as his associate would be a good experiment. Or the other way around possibly. (Ward doesn't seem to me like a guy that would have too much ego to work with a better x and o guy than he is.)

I mean sure it would be a risk, but if you're not going to blow up the team, I feel like it would be a risk worth taking. Jalonen at least has a couple of miracles in his track record, specifically with rosters that were short in high-end talent.

This team is so mentally fragile that you need a veteran coach that knows what to do and can calm these guys down when #### happens.

Coaches have to match the right team. Tortorella did not work with a veteran Canucks team but with teams with a younger core like the Lightning and Jackets he has had more success.

Those successful young coaches have generally been with veteran teams or teams with good leadership.

Flames don’t have much leadership and experience, only Lucic has gone deep in the playoffs and that dummy took a dumb penalty to spark the Stars.

Flames need a veteran coach unless they go and acquire a new clubhouse leader who has been there done that and also drives possession.

Again, the leader of the 2004 Flames was Darryl, not Iggy. You can’t underestimate the things he did to take pressure off the team, to calm them when they panicked, to kickstart them when they sagged.

That game 6 collapse doesn’t happen with a veteran coach behind the bench.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by chummer

Yup, heard from a good source Johnny and Mony wouldn't re-sign if Hartley was still the coach.

If this is true, then they are a big part of the problem and need to go.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I just wish we had picked up Vigneault when he was available. He's done quite a fantastic job turning Philly around.

If the coach can't take them to the next level people will keep blaming the players. Vigneault would have been an excellent hire. We could trade Johnny bring in Hall and still have the same results during post season, if the coach can't make the adjustments. I Think Talbot was fine we didn't give him enough support.

[868904]

Hall says he wants stability. If Treliving wants to sign him, he better sign one of the top coaches out there. I’m sure Hall is sick of playing for coaches and organizations that don’t know what they are doing.

I think hiring Gallant would be the best way to lure Hall.

Keeping Ward won’t get Hall to sign here.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by 868904

Hall says he wants stability. If Treliving wants to sign him, he better sign one of the top coaches out there. I’m sure Hall is sick of playing for coaches and organizations that don’t know what they are doing.

I think hiring Gallant would be the best way to lure Hall.

Keeping Ward won’t get Hall to sign here.

Not sure if I care a bunch for Hall but Gallant would be great

[Chonger]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I'm not going to comment on the locker room stuff, as I have no real knowledge of the rumours on that front. But fans, CP were getting pretty sick of the hail Mary stretch pass strategy, with forwards just blowing the zone. But fact that he got more out of basically the same core than the numerous guys after him, puts him on an unwarranted pedestal for sure.

"He got more out of less than anybody after him, but hes put on a pedestal?" Im not a Hartly lover, but thats what you said

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Vigneault always seems to wear out his welcome eventually, but his immediate success with virtually every team he has coached is undeniable.

I think all coaches have a shelf-life, and many of the successful ones are short. Knowing that, I'd rather have someone who can get some success out of the team rather than nothing.

That's why my preference would be Laviolette if he'd be willing to come to Western Canada. He has taken each of the last three teams he coached to the Final, and has coached all or part of at least 5 seasons with those three teams.

Considering that Bob Johnson and Bob Hartley are the only coaches who have seen a fourth season behind the bench in Calgary, it's not like 5 years is a short shelf-life.

[Teroy]

I keep asking myself, "why do we want another retread coach? If they weren't good enough to remain with their previous team, why do we want them?" The good old boys just keep recycling the same guys. I don't believe this years poor result can be blamed entirely on Ward. If we had the horses, it would be a different result. As far as I'm concerned, it's on the players.

[agulati]

Ward still technically has the interim tag correct? If so, I don’t expect him to be let go till we have a replacement lined up.