Poll Request: Retool or Rebuild?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Florida's not trading Barkov. And with Tkachuk on the roster I don't think it can be considered a rebuild. I think this team is heading towards a retool, hopefully around Tkachuk and Andersson, supported by Bennett and Dube.

I guess it depends on your definition of rebuild.

Tkachuk is 22, Andersson is 23 and Bennett 24 Dube 22.

I think keeping everyone under 25 (I said 30 earlier, but it's not realistic in a rebuild) would be a pretty successful rebuild. Plus would be building around the right pieces IMO.

Trade:
Gaudreau (27)
Backlund (31)
Giordano (36)
Ryan (33)

I think they would have have fairly good returns. You entertain offers on others (Monahan, Lindholm, Bennett), but they are still young.

.

[MrMike]

I agree, we jumped the gun with out rebuild and this is what you get when that happens.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The other reason that I think you need a rebuild and not a retool is the cap. In a cap world, almost all trades send roughly the same amount of salary each way.

If you're retooling, and you try to move Monahan as an example, you are probably going to get a couple lesser players that add up to $6-7M, plus a prospect or pick or two. In other words, it is very difficult to improve the team.

Conversely, if you commit to a rebuild, you can take on a dead contract. If you do that, you can send Monahan to a contender who is looking for that last piece to psh them over the top. You take a garbage contract off their hands, and you can get some really good value back in the form of picks and prospects.

That is what the Flames need to do - they need to utilize the value they have t=in their core players in order to load up on a bunch of young talent.

The great thing about the Flames roster right now is that they have a bunch of really talented players that are still pretty young and have good cap hits (Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Bennett). they also have a couple vets that would be huge help to a contender (Giordano, Backlund).

The best way to maximize the return for these guys is to take crappy contracts back.

Ideally the goal is you take crappy contracts that maybe aren't super crappy contracts back.

Similar to how Montreal took what was a cap dump of Tomas Tatar when they traded Pacioretty, and he ended up being good for them. Or when Turris was included as part of the Duchene trade as a cap move for Ottawa.

I have a gut feeling we could see something around Monahan for 7th overall + Ristolainen happen this offseason.

A guy like Ristolainen is a bad advanced metrics player and the league appears to have caught to that fact. But he's still okay on the PP, is a big guy that plays physical, and fills a need as a RH shot dman on this team.

Plus he's been bad when forced to play top pairing minutes with heavy defensive zone starts for a horrible team in Buffalo, maybe he improves when he's more sheltered on the second or third pairing with more offensive minutes. Hell even ROR looked horrible in Buffalo.

Or in a simlar case for a Gaudreau trade.

Flyers were rumored to have been shopping Gostisbehere around, he still has 3 years and $4.5M left on his deal, and the team hasn't been enamored with his play and he had a really poor offensive season for a guy that's main attribute is his offense.

Maybe you take that contract in return from the Flyers if they throw in Patrick, their 1st, and other pieces (Frost, etc) to make it worthwhile for the Flames.

Then as the Flames you decide if you're going to flip that piece (similar to what the Avs did with the Ottawa/Nashville trade and Turris) or if you think they can be part of the solution long term.

[VladtheImpaler]

You need a real coach - there have been many examples of how much influence a coach has on teams that seem too weak on paper - Torts in CLB, Trotz at NYI... even Hartley here.
I don't think Laviolette would come, but I think we can land Boudreau or Sutter.

[Azure]

Monahan would do very well as an actual #2 center.

Lots of team would love him in that slot. He would get better starts, better matchups, etc.

The Flames have lots on the table to bargin with. I just don't think its necessary to blow the entire thing up. I agree with the everyone over 25 is on the table.

That way the Flames have a decent core to start with.

[Enoch Root]

Monahan as a #2 means you have elite C depth. And his cap hit is very good for what you're getting. If the Flames retained a million or so (wouldn't happen), he would be incredible value.

A team looking to add depth to get over the top would give up a serious return to acquire Monahan, especially if they could also move a cap dump.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Monahan as a #2 means you have elite C depth. And his cap hit is very good for what you're getting. If the Flames retained a million or so (wouldn't happen), he would be incredible value.

A team looking to add depth to get over the top would give up a serious return to acquire Monahan, especially if they could also move a cap dump.

Monahan to Buffalo for Okposo, Cozens, 8th overall

Does the cap dump of Okposo make getting those other two assets from Buffalo realistic?

[DomeFoam]

I agree, Monahan would be a great #2.

If hes not 'the guy' and continues to score the way he does playing below a true top line, look out.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Monahan to Buffalo for Okposo, Cozens, 8th overall

Does the cap dump of Okposo make getting those other two assets from Buffalo realistic?

If I'm Buffalo, I look at my roster and ask myself if I have enough talent to surround Eichel and Monahan. If I do, that's an elite 1-2 punch, and I would give up any prospects required to make it happen.

What else does Buffalo have to round out their top 6 around those 2?

[DomeFoam]

Reinhart natural C, been playing RW for awhile. I think their current 2C is Marcus Johansson.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

The Flames need to get a decent coach, and then it's a lot easier to assess the players. If thr Flames brought in a guy like Darryl, the players would have learned what it takes to win, so whatever coach was brought in the plauers would have solid habits. We need a experienced coach that knows how to work with guys like Bennett, and maybe would have been a lot further ahead. Several tries and we still haven't got it right. The fact is we could bring in a bunch of new players, if we don't have the right coach everybody's going to want to trade them too.

Yes!! Just look at the NYI, they brought in the best coach who installed a great system and look at the lineup they have. As noted on their game last night the players know their job, do their own job and DO NOT freelance from their job in the defensive end. They freelance a bit in the offensive end but they look after their own end first. This is what the Flames need to begin with, then adjust the roster players. Great take on the coaching from you.

[Enoch Root]

Holy crap! Buffalo has 4 forwards under contract for next season. Four!

If I am them, no way I am trading picks and prospects away right now - they are nowhere near being a competitive team

[Flash Walken]

When you trade for prospects you're getting some of the worst return possible because you're either overpaying significantly for a player an organization doesn't want to let go, or you're paying market price for a player they don't mind letting go.

Trading for prospects as the major components of trades is a re-tool, it won't work, it's a bad idea and the Flames shouldn't do that if they want to be competitive.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When you trade for prospects you're getting some of the worst return possible because you're either overpaying significantly for a player an organization doesn't want to let go, or you're paying market price for a player they don't mind letting go.

Trading for prospects as the major components of trades is a re-tool, it won't work, it's a bad idea and the Flames shouldn't do that if they want to be competitive.

So what do you want as a return? Players, or picks? And how do you think they can improve the team?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When you trade for prospects you're getting some of the worst return possible because you're either overpaying significantly for a player an organization doesn't want to let go, or you're paying market price for a player they don't mind letting go.

Trading for prospects as the major components of trades is a re-tool, it won't work, it's a bad idea and the Flames shouldn't do that if they want to be competitive.

Exactly this.

I think the best thing this organization can do is gather draft picks and trust their scouts.

Everything else is just a path back to mediocrity. It is beyond infuriating that Tree spent a 3rd and a 4th on Forbort and Gus.

What a waste in a long history of wasting picks. Needlessly and recklessly blowing assets. You have to be patient and you can't take mid-level swings that blow up in your face in free agency (Neal, Brouwer, Raymond). So much waste.

The more I talk about Tree, the less impressed I am. Just a sub-par GM. Easily in the bottom 10 league-wide.

[Sylvanfan]

I vote for the rebuild strategy. I think Treliving has found out that Calgary jsut isn't a place where top players want to come to when they have a choice, and that it's hindered his ability to improve the team. Even when he can get a good deal, other things kill the deal on him. The only strategy is to get home grown players and build the team that way, and even that is very hard to do with the new structure of RFA deals. We have some good guys in Lucic, Backland, and Giordano who can mentor young guys, and easily allow a rebuilding team to hit the cap floor. But I think it needs a 5 year plan to essentially turn over the entire core to a group of new leaders. Maybe some guys like Anderson, Valimaki, Dube, and Mangiapane are still around at that time as your new long time supplemental veterans, but everyone else get's sold off when it's time for whatever you can get.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When you trade for prospects you're getting some of the worst return possible because you're either overpaying significantly for a player an organization doesn't want to let go, or you're paying market price for a player they don't mind letting go.

Trading for prospects as the major components of trades is a re-tool, it won't work, it's a bad idea and the Flames shouldn't do that if they want to be competitive.

Acquiring picks and prospects is the lifeblood of what makes a team competitive for a long time.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

NJ’s rebuild has not taken the next step, particularly Hischier. They might be looking to unload him before his NTC and 7.25 AAV contract kick in. He’s signed for longer than Gaudreau but Johnny is cheaper and more of a sure thing so I don’t think you’d need to add much. But that is a dangerous dice roll that Hischier will develop into a true #1C.

I wish! The Devil's are not trading Hischier and if they do there would have to be a significant add to Gaudreau. He has a more skilled Bergeron written all over him, he just needs better linemates and coaching.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I wish! The Devil's are not trading Hischier and if they do there would have to be a significant add to Gaudreau. He has a more skilled Bergeron written all over him, he just needs better linemates and coaching.

Yep.

I'd gladly take that 7th Overall off their hands for Johnny though. Gives Hischier a top level winger - and Hischier isn't a leech, so they would be a dynamic duo.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Yes!! Just look at the NYI, they brought in the best coach who installed a great system and look at the lineup they have. As noted on their game last night the players know their job, do their own job and DO NOT freelance from their job in the defensive end. They freelance a bit in the offensive end but they look after their own end first. This is what the Flames need to begin with, then adjust the roster players. Great take on the coaching from you.

In the last 10 years the Islanders have drafted twice in the 1st round four times.

Their top 4 scorers in the playoffs are all former first round picks taken by the team.

3 of their 4 icetime leaders were picked in the first 3 rounds, one in the 1st round.