American Politics Thread: The Hunt for Blue November

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I believe it was James Carville that said Republicans want to win, Democrats want to be right.

Democrats shift to focusing in what wins, and you're worried about future elections, not this one.

Lots of things I won't disagree with in your post. This point deserves some comment though, because wanting to be right is not a bad thing. Voter suppression and disenfranchisement wins. Corruption wins. Divisive, fear mongering and dishonest politics win. Filibusters and refusing to pass legislation to craft political narratives or hurt political opponents and populations that oppose you wins. Destroying educational systems and social benefits programs that build a strong electorate wins. Devout loyalty to party, even over loyalty to the laws of the country, wins. Being better at all of these things wins when there is no sense of the value of being right.

We're just waiting to see if destroying public faith in electoral process and results in order to negate the last legal method for removing a president from power will win (it has in other countries).

Winning at all costs is a great way to destroy democracy.

In the current context, I hope the Democrats make pragmatic decisions in order to win and get Trump out, but in the long run (if they succeed), I hope they govern by spending time focused on what's right instead of being focused on winning.

[GirlySports]

That's a bit of a contradiction Maritime. If the progressive wing is so small, and if AOC is so irrelevant, then what does that give ammunition to the GOP? Who would care? She is absolutely relevant.

So why be scared of that? How does highlighting your bright, diverse, young people hand the election over to the GOP? If you had a 'Future of the Party Night' and the GOP goes after that, that's more ammunition for you! For all of Obama's achivements that you listed, nobody knew who he was before he made that speech. That speech made Obama a household name. AOC already is. No contest.

You have to rally around your differences, not push them to the side. Who cares about Trump. Stop trying to pull over a few scraps that will upset your own progressive base. You want to build a base that will win elections for generations. The GOP is dying.

[rubecube]

DNC: "Progressives only make up a small percentage of the party, so we shouldn't bother catering to them."

Progressives: "Okay, so we should vote for a third party then?"

DNC: *pterodactyl noises*

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by rubecube

DNC: "Progressives only make up a small percentage of the party, so we shouldn't bother catering to them."

Progressives: "Okay, so we should vote for a third party then?"

DNC: *pterodactyl noises*

Also Progressives: "Why does the DNC keep saying we don't matter after we vote for another party?!"

[troutman]

Originally Posted by rubecube

DNC: *pterodactyl noises*

Is this the opposite of crickets chirping?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Also Progressives: "Why does the DNC keep saying we don't matter after we vote for another party?!"

They've voted Democrat in almost every previous election, so...

I mean the obvious answer is to vote for Biden and keep primarying the crap out of incumbents in strong blue districts, but I can certainly understand the "F the whole game" mentality even if I don't agree with it. Kasich pretty much gave the game away in his speech the other night.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Lots of things I won't disagree with in your post. This point deserves some comment though, because wanting to be right is not a bad thing. Voter suppression and disenfranchisement wins. Corruption wins. Divisive, fear mongering and dishonest politics win. Filibusters and refusing to pass legislation to craft political narratives or hurt political opponents and populations that oppose you wins. Destroying educational systems and social benefits programs that build a strong electorate wins. Devout loyalty to party, even over loyalty to the laws of the country, wins. Being better at all of these things wins when there is no sense of the value of being right.

We're just waiting to see if destroying public faith in electoral process and results in order to negate the last legal method for removing a president from power will win (it has in other countries).

Winning at all costs is a great way to destroy democracy.

In the current context, I hope the Democrats make pragmatic decisions in order to win and get Trump out, but in the long run (if they succeed), I hope they govern by spending time focused on what's right instead of being focused on winning.

I don't disagree, but you still need to want to win.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

That's a bit of a contradiction Maritime. If the progressive wing is so small, and if AOC is so irrelevant, then what does that give ammunition to the GOP? Who would care? She is absolutely relevant.

So why be scared of that? How does highlighting your bright, diverse, young people hand the election over to the GOP? If you had a 'Future of the Party Night' and the GOP goes after that, that's more ammunition for you! For all of Obama's achivements that you listed, nobody knew who he was before he made that speech. That speech made Obama a household name. AOC already is. No contest.

You have to rally around your differences, not push them to the side. Who cares about Trump. Stop trying to pull over a few scraps that will upset your own progressive base. You want to build a base that will win elections for generations. The GOP is dying.

Not at all. Do you disenfranchise your base to cater to a minority?

And yes Rube, the DNC gets upset if the minority of left votes 3rd party because a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I think when you break it down to the true hardcore's, progressives are a much smaller element of the Democrats ability to win than the Republicans. The QAnon Quacks are actually a meaningful component of any GOP path to victory. And unlike progressives who might actually vote third party, the QAnon Quacks will simply not vote if they aren't catered to.

It's also kind of funny because despite the incessant progressive bitching, the Dems have actually moved left in the last couple of years. But when they see how much further to the right the QAnon Quacks have moved the GOP, I suspect there's a little bit of bitterness and jealousy that progressives can't have the same impact.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

And yes Rube, the DNC gets upset if the minority of left votes 3rd party because a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump.

So if a Republican votes for a third-party candidate, is that a vote for Biden, or is it also a vote for Trump? Just want to be clear on what the rules are here.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

It's also kind of funny because despite the incessant progressive bitching, the Dems have actually moved left in the last couple of years. But when they see how much further to the right the QAnon Quacks have moved the GOP, I suspect there's a little bit of bitterness and jealousy that progressives can't have the same impact.

The Dems have moved left because progressives have forced their hand. And you're right, progressives have woken up to the fact that their best bet to be given more concessions is by forcing the DNC to come to them. It just sucks that if they do it during this particular election, they get stuck with a literal fascist.

Again, the smart thing to do is to primary incumbents in strong-blue districts and continue to build their strength in congress. Also, maybe threaten to stay home in 2022 and turn Biden into a lame duck president.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

That's a bit of a contradiction Maritime. If the progressive wing is so small, and if AOC is so irrelevant, then what does that give ammunition to the GOP? Who would care? She is absolutely relevant.

So why be scared of that? How does highlighting your bright, diverse, young people hand the election over to the GOP? If you had a 'Future of the Party Night' and the GOP goes after that, that's more ammunition for you! For all of Obama's achivements that you listed, nobody knew who he was before he made that speech. That speech made Obama a household name. AOC already is. No contest.

You have to rally around your differences, not push them to the side. Who cares about Trump. Stop trying to pull over a few scraps that will upset your own progressive base. You want to build a base that will win elections for generations. The GOP is dying.

Obama was supporting and developing the party's platform.

AOC is rebelling against it and trying to use populist methods to force change.

She's toned some of that down recently, and got 60 seconds out of it is how I read it.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So if a Republican votes for a third-party candidate, is that a vote for Biden, or is it also a vote for Trump? Just want to be clear on what the rules are here.

That hasn’t happened since Ross Perot. The one thing I give Republicans is that they know how to play the game, and the voters know that 3rd party votes don’t give you what you want. The tea party was incorporated, as were libertarians like the Paul’s. Democrats need to do the same on the left with Green Party candidates and progressives.

To do that well, you need to include some policies that will appease those groups, while being a centrist on items that may alienate swing voters. I think that is starting to happen, but you are never going to get everything you want, that’s just politics.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, the smart thing to do is to primary incumbents in strong-blue districts and continue to build their strength in congress. Also, maybe threaten to stay home in 2022 and turn Biden into a lame duck president.

It's actually hard to imagine Biden as a two term President, I would guess he won't run again in 2024. And yes starting at the lowest level is the smartest play for progressives, expect to take over the party from the top is ambitious, foolishly so.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

That hasn’t happened since Ross Perot. The one thing I give Republicans is that they know how to play the game, and the voters know that 3rd party votes don’t give you what you want. The tea party was incorporated, as were libertarians like the Paul’s. Democrats need to do the same on the left with Green Party candidates and progressives.

To do that well, you need to include some policies that will appease those groups, while being a centrist on items that may alienate swing voters. I think that is starting to happen, but you are never going to get everything you want, that’s just politics.

The Tea Party has been kind of a disaster for the Republicans. The Republicans lucked out by having Trump come in and magically win the rust belt states that changed everything for the last 4 years. But the Tea Party forcing in their candidates in states like Virginia and North Carolina are making the Republican non-viable in states they used to have a chance in. Once the rust belt flips back blue, Republicans are in a bad spot.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

That hasn’t happened since Ross Perot. The one thing I give Republicans is that they know how to play the game, and the voters know that 3rd party votes don’t give you what you want. The tea party was incorporated, as were libertarians like the Paul’s. Democrats need to do the same on the left with Green Party candidates and progressives.

To do that well, you need to include some policies that will appease those groups, while being a centrist on items that may alienate swing voters. I think that is starting to happen, but you are never going to get everything you want, that’s just politics.

Gary Johnson received more votes than Jill Stein did in 2016.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

It's actually hard to imagine Biden as a two term President, I would guess he won't run again in 2024. And yes starting at the lowest level is the smartest play for progressives, expect to take over the party from the top is ambitious, foolishly so.

No, I agree, but if progressives want to flex their muscles in an attempt to get more concessions from a Harris presidency in 2024, they probably need to make a statement in the midterms.

[ResAlien]

Personally I love Schrödinger’s progressives. They’re simultaneously a minority that can be safely dismissed when it comes to policy and also a critical voting bloc that is blamed for democrat’s failures if they don’t vote as they’re told.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

We're just waiting to see if destroying public faith in electoral process and results in order to negate the last legal method for removing a president from power will win (it has in other countries).

Winning at all costs is a great way to destroy democracy.

In the current context, I hope the Democrats make pragmatic decisions in order to win and get Trump out, but in the long run (if they succeed), I hope they govern by spending time focused on what's right instead of being focused on winning.

I believe there's one idea that Biden and the Democrats are very serious about that's also crucial to a longterm progressive agenda: election reform. It's just clearly in the Democrats interest right now.

Done well it could actually be a big push to restore some faith in the system.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by rubecube

DNC: "Progressives only make up a small percentage of the party, so we shouldn't bother catering to them."

Progressives: "Okay, so we should vote for a third party then?"

DNC: *pterodactyl noises*

Progressives: "Cater to us or we'll stay home"

America: "Okay, so we'll elect Trump then?"

Progressives: *pterodactyl noises*

You're insufferable.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Itse

I believe there's one idea that Biden and the Democrats are very serious about that's also crucial to a longterm progressive agenda: election reform. It's just clearly in the Democrats interest right now.

Done well it could actually be a big push to restore some faith in the system.

Electoral reform how? Create a national body like Elections Canada? You'd have to amend the constitution.