What if Sam Bennett has another good playoff performance?

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Bennett - Dube
??????? - Backlund - Mangiapane
Lucic - Ryan - Reider

I really like the look of that and maybe Pelletier fills in that empty spot or maybe Gaudreau gets traded and replaced with Hall and a player coming back can fill that spot.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I honestly wouldn't touch Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane. They're our best line when they're going. Part of me wants to put Monahan in that Lucic role, he has a really similar skillset minus the physicality and brings a ton of finish. Gosh it would be nice to have arguably eleven top nine forwards (assuming Lucic and Ryan don't decline hard).

Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Toffoli - Lindholm - Gaudreau (Johnny on his offwing with two righties, I would really like to see this for the quick release opportunities)
Monahan - Bennett - Dube (the center line)
Lucic - Ryan - Reider

My biggest issue with your line-up is that it's just shuffling around pieces that quite frankly aren't getting it done while signing another mid-tier UFA that probably won't work out (although Toffoli is notably better than Neal/Brower heading into free agency). That's what the team has been doing for a while now and we continue to see the results.

I guess what I'm saying is the Johnny era has ended in my mind - and I love the player because he's ridiculously entertaining during the regular season, but I don't think we have the pieces that can carry his complete absence in the defensive zone and inability to forecheck.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It's a small sample size but the two players that jump out from that list are Bennett and Tkachuk.

Those are the two individuals for sure.

I see a tale of 3 lines:

1) Monahan's line just not getting enough points, considering the icetime and PP1
2) Backlund's line just not getting it done. Period
3) Bennett, Dube and Lucic being 'playoff guys'

[Flamenspiel]

^^In fairness, Backlund is missing their best player on that line. I think you have to recognize that there are two teams out there. Pavelski and Klingberg have been outstanding. No one on the Flames defense has contributed that much and Pavelski looks like a renaissance man.

Back to the topic though, clearly Sam Bennett is the last guy you trade at this point. Heck, many of us thought thought that during the regular season.

[looooob]

random stat of the day. Sam Bennett has 11 goals in 28 playoff games as a Flame. Gary Roberts 13 in 58.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

^^In fairness, Backlund is missing their best player on that line. I think you have to recognize that there are two teams out there. Pavelski and Klingberg have been outstanding. No one on the Flames defense has contributed that much and Pavelski looks like a renaissance man.

This is the 6th playoff series for Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett and Backlund. Yes, it is only 28 games, but when you get similar results for 6 playoff series in a row, I think it is fair to start drawing some conclusions.

Tkachuk has only missed 2 games. And it's not like the line was on fire prior to that. Backlund has been good on the PK, but over the course of 6 playoff series, I am rather underwhelmed.

I agree that the sample size is small for Tkachuk and Mangiapane, but so far, we haven't seen much.

[VilleN]

I don't understand why we need to move on from Bennett. It's kind of an ideal situation from a cap perspective. Due to his bad regular season play we get a top line FWD in the playoffs for a fraction of the cost. If Bennett not performing in the regular season is what makes us miss the playoffs then we have bigger problems.

[Bingo]

Sam Bennett makes a million more than the highest paid fourth liner (simple salary search for and the math of forward number 280)

So is Sam Bennett a fourth liner? If that's the case he's a million on the rich side when it comes to his current contract (and next year).

That's not a big issue.

Factor in the physical play, his versatility (plays all three forward positions), and the fact that he elevates in the playoffs and it would be pretty hard to argue he hasn't closed that gap even if he is a 12 point regular season guy.

Bottom line ... ain't nobody arguing that Bennett is lucky to be productive this year.

So it time? Moving to center? linemates? Who knows ... and if you want to move on and sell high you can certainly do that. But I don't see the "too expensive" argument at all.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think you have to recognize that there are two teams out there. Pavelski and Klingberg have been outstanding. No one on the Flames defense has contributed that much and Pavelski looks like a renaissance man.

I subscribe to what I like to call the "decoy theory" (for lack of a better name). Basically, there is Offence and Defence and neither of these two things live in a vacuum.

Some points:

- A team with three offensive lines is harder to shut down than a team with only one or two. - A team with three defensive lines is harder to score on than a team with only one or two.
- Teams can win with either deep offence or deep defence. If you can throw more lines at the other team than they can respond to, you'll have a better chance at winning the game.
- Calgary is a 3-line-offence team.
- Dallas is a 3-line-defence team.

Some examples:

- Calgary playing against a 1-line-defence team: defence shuts down one line, and can't stop the other two. They focus on Monahan's line, so Baclund's line is free to score goals. They adapt to focus on Backlund's line and now Monhan's line is free to score goals.
- Calgary playing against a 2-line-defence team: defence shuts down two lines, and can't stop the other one. They focus on Monahan's and Backlund's lines, so Bennett's line is free to score goals. They adapt to focus on Bennett's line while continuing to focus on Monahan's line, and now Backlund's line is free to score goals... etc etc.
- Calgary playing against a 3-line-defence team: defence shuts down all three offensive lines. The game is now all about coaching. Timeouts. Line changes. Matchups. "Mistake-free hockey." Whichever team makes the least amount of mistakes wins the game. Fourth line becomes more important. "Goalie stole the game" starts to happen. Intangibles!

There are also offence vs offence and defence vs defence scenarios that come into play from time to time, but they're not relevant to this series.

Unfortunately, we're in a series right now that is going to be decided 100% by intangibles. Dallas is a defensively deep team. One could even say they're the new Anaheim. A team that succeeds by making their opponents beat themselves. Their gameplan is "stay with them defensively until we can force them to do something stupid and then capatilize."

Even more unfortunately, Calgary is a team that is very good at beating themselves. Honda Centre was never "cursed." We're just a team of suckers that can't seem to figure out we're bing lead into a trap until it's too late and we're already falling towards the spikes at the bottom of the pit.


tldr: We're playing against Anaheim all over again, and we still haven't figured out how to not fall for their BS and quit beating ourselves.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by looooob

random stat of the day. Sam Bennett has 11 goals in 28 playoff games as a Flame. Gary Roberts 13 in 58.

Bennett has 12.

The one vs Anaheim in his rookie year was in.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Sam Bennett makes a million more than the highest paid fourth liner (simple salary search for and the math of forward number 280)

So is Sam Bennett a fourth liner? If that's the case he's a million on the rich side when it comes to his current contract (and next year).

That's not a big issue.

Factor in the physical play, his versatility (plays all three forward positions), and the fact that he elevates in the playoffs and it would be pretty hard to argue he hasn't closed that gap even if he is a 12 point regular season guy.

Bottom line ... ain't nobody arguing that Bennett is lucky to be productive this year.

So it time? Moving to center? linemates? Who knows ... and if you want to move on and sell high you can certainly do that. But I don't see the "too expensive" argument at all.

My latest theory on Bennett, is that he doesn't have a "regular season" mode. He has one mode, and it's "playoff hockey." Normally, this would be one of the most valuable traits a player can have... unfortunately, the NHL is a world with two rule books. One for the regular season and one for the playoffs. Bennett gets a penalty every time he breathes in the regular season, but in the playoffs he's allowed to play his game and is very VERY good at it.

[Bill Bumface]

With our current roster composition where we spend a lot of money on regular season performers who have a trend of poor playoff numbers, we need to overvalue and pursue playoff performers as long as there is enough in the stable to make the post-season each year.

Bennett is the type of player we should be holding onto for dear life.

[CSharp]

A lot of good Bennett does if the team is on the bubble and doesn't make it into the playoffs. Even if the Flames do get into the playoffs, if you have one or two guys playing the best hockey of their lives and the rest aren't jiving, the team isn't going anywhere. One player don't make a team unless if he's a generational player. Sell high, get what you can for him when you can. The way I see it in this playoffs is that several players have risen to the occasion. I don't see anyone shouting out on building a team around Reider or Dube do we?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

My latest theory on Bennett, is that he doesn't have a "regular season" mode. He has one mode, and it's "playoff hockey." Normally, this would be one of the most valuable traits a player can have... unfortunately, the NHL is a world with two rule books. One for the regular season and one for the playoffs. Bennett gets a penalty every time he breathes in the regular season, but in the playoffs he's allowed to play his game and is very VERY good at it.

Maybe he needs to watch some Iggys early seasons and become more of a power forward.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CSharp

A lot of good Bennett does if the team is on the bubble and doesn't make it into the playoffs. Even if the Flames do get into the playoffs, if you have one or two guys playing the best hockey of their lives and the rest aren't jiving, the team isn't going anywhere. One player don't make a team unless if he's a generational player. Sell high, get what you can for him when you can. The way I see it in this playoffs is that several players have risen to the occasion. I don't see anyone shouting out on building a team around Reider or Dube do we?

If the team can't make the playoffs, fix the rest of the team.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If the team can't make the playoffs, fix the rest of the team.

So let a guy slide for 82 games because he "might" turn it on in the post season?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

So let a guy slide for 82 games because he "might" turn it on in the post season?

Well, after 6 series, I don't think it's a 'might'

And 2nd, he doesn't get a holiday for the regular season - it's up to the coach to find a better use for him (which I think has been found with Dube)

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

So let a guy slide for 82 games because he "might" turn it on in the post season?

I would have agreed with you prior to this year's playoffs, but with yet another big performance I don't think it's a "might" anymore. We have legit sample size relevant proof with multiple linemate combinations over many years: Sam Bennett produces in the playoffs. It is known.

So, is a player that maxes out around 30 points in the season but puts up ~.6 ppg with a really heavy game come playoff time worth letting it slide for the season? Yes absolutely IMO.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by New Era

So let a guy slide for 82 games because he "might" turn it on in the post season?

When have the Flames ever let Sam Bennett "slide"?

They've literally put him with our worst forwards and he's consistently made those lines competent. And no, most of those were not a case of him getting demoted - most of those players had higher expectations that they neither met in Calgary nor did they leave Calgary to meet those expectations.

Troy Brouwer - they literally believed he was a top six forward. Tkachuk - Bennett - Brouwer was the second line they pencilled in on opening night that year. The rookie out of junior Tkachuk needed time with a more experienced center as that was 20 year old Bennett's first year at the position at this level, and Brouwer simply couldn't perform, not even with Gaudreau and Monahan nor was he able to play on the shutdown line with Backlund (Tkachuk - Backlund - Brouwer was attempted multiple times and failed every time).

Alex Chiasson - not exactly a top nine forward, but that's who Bennett spent a good chunk of 2016-17 with once Brouwer was finally demoted to the fourth line. He had to get a PTO with Washington that year. He's a solid 4th liner, I like the guy, but the emphasis is on "fourth liner". Though he was also tried with Gaudreau and Monahan in a desperate hope to get something that wasn't there out of him, god bless Mr Offside.

Curtis Lazar - They had hopes for this young player, but ultimately that's all they proved to be. He cleared waivers the next year. But I'm sure you've got a spin on how Bennett being unable to use The Force to put Lazar's shots into the back of the net was "letting Bennett slide"

Kris Versteeg - I have nothing bad to say about Versteeg's first year here. But the second year, Versteeg had a hip injury and played awful until he decided to call it quits on the season.

Mark Jankowski - they believed Jankowski had the tools to be a#3 or better center when he was a prospect. I did too. But everyone was simply too optimistic.

Garnet Hathaway - Even though he was clearly a 4th line talent, he was elevated to this line (which at the time functioned as our 3rd) because of his success with Jankowski in the AHL. Not one person thought he was a top nine forward.

Jaromir Jagr - they thought he could hang around in the NHL. He couldn't. Another player who got to play with Gaudreau and Monahan and then whenever that failed, was put on the Bennett line. See a theme?

James Neal - the definition of a floater. Except he couldn't even finish great setups as a Flame. Another player who was tried with Gaudreau and Monahan but couldn't succeed with them, but had some success with Bennett. Were we "letting Bennett slide" when he essentially got utility out of Neal?

Tobias Rieder - he's been great for us shorthanded these playoffs. Yet has done zilch 5v5 even with Backlund and Mangiapane or with Derek Ryan as his center. And this regular season? Zero finish. 5v5, Rieder had 7.03 expected goals, and Bennett had 7.29 expected goals. The actual goals? Rieder had 2, and Bennett had 8. So who was being let slide - Sam Bennett? Or his linemates who didn't finish the chances they got? Bennett's zero secondary assist season was not on Sam Bennett.

I swear, sometimes I wonder if some Flames fans even watch Flames games.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

So, is a player that maxes out around 30 points in the season but puts up ~.6 ppg with a really heavy game come playoff time worth letting it slide for the season? Yes absolutely IMO.

I like Bennett and have never been one of his big detractors but IMO players that only show up for the playoffs are a luxury for elite teams that are annual cup contenders. The Flames are a level below that as a bubble team that's in the hunt to make the playoffs. The Flames invested a 4th overall pick into Bennett and there's no sugar coating that he's averaging a paltry 28 points per regular season. I don't think his salary is an issue at all but if any team overvalues his playoff play and is willing to give up quality assets in return I think it's probably the last kick at the can a GM is going to get to try and get a better return for that 4th overall selection. It's not a must move like moving Gaudreau but it's something the GM should be open to for the right return.