The Alpha Course

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mayer

Here's one obvious standard. A problem I have with Mormons and JW's calling themselves "Christians", and thats the fact that they feel the need to change some things in the Bible, as well as add onto it. If you are a true Christian, you believe the Bible is God inspired word, and it is final. I can't tell you how many times I've had arguements with Mormons after they've referred to themselves as Christians. I can't stand it.

People want to talk about brainwashed, they need to talk about those 2 groups.

The book of Morom is a poorly plagiarised version of the King James Bible.

The most telling proof of plagiarism is the fact that the author of the Book of Mormon copied the King James Version verbatim right down to the style of print. When the translators of the KJV translated from Hebrew to English in the Old Testament, they added clarifying words, italicizing them to let the reader know they were not in the original text.
The author of the Book of Mormon apparently did not realize this. Consequently, in the hundreds of verbatim passages from the Bible, the Book of Mormon includes the italicized words. Though the book was ostensibly translated from plates written in reformed Egyptian, which were copies from the original Hebrew writings, the only way to account for the italicized words is that the book was not translated from gold plates at all, but rather from a King James Bible.

http://www.mazeministry.com/resource...zappendixc.htm

[Calgaryborn]

My understanding of the Corinthian passage concerning a women's covering is it is talking about hair. Women should have long hair and men should have short hair.

I was not aware that Hal Lindsey had ever prophesied. Are you sure about that Azure? To the best of my knowledge he has spent his career interpreting prophetic scriptures in light of world events. He's been wrong a lot and probably should be ignored but, I don't think he should be classed as a false prophet for that.

My wife's Grandfather in the middle of some theological discussion with me said "You Baptists think your right and everybody else is wrong". My response was to ask him if he thought he was wrong. He didn't respond. My point is that someone is right. Maybe not on everything but, on the important things like: Who is God and what does He want from me? Now I've been told that India alone has more than a million gods. As someone has pointed out already within Christianity there is a wide variety of sects who think they are right. Each would have a slightly different answer to that question(Who is God and what does he want from me?). Ultimately all but one answer will be wrong. That should be sobering to us all. The Atheists are staking their eternity on having the right answer to the question just as much as I am as a Baptist or someone else is as a Mormon. But because the odds are against me or the next guy being right should we be silent and think we're somehow wrong? I think not. We should walk by and express what we know to be true until proven wrong. How else should a person live? Determine in your heart and head what is true and live it out. Never close your eyes to others answer to the question but, until you find a more probable answer than your own you run with what you believe. If in the end I find my self standing before God and I got the answer wrong at least I'll know I made the attempt.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

My understanding of the Corinthian passage concerning a women's covering is it is talking about hair. Women should have long hair and men should have short hair.

My assertion is that (in the vein of many religious writings being of or under cultural/political influence) the verse is simply a suggestion for the times by the writer who is giving his opinion. Same goes for so many of the things written by Paul taken by various Churches to be written-in-stone guidelines for how one must lead their lives or structure their entire religion when Paul himself basically says of many things that these are his words and not from God, therefore not divinely inspired and merely his opinion on issues asked of him.

[Mayer]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

My understanding of the Corinthian passage concerning a women's covering is it is talking about hair. Women should have long hair and men should have short hair.

I was not aware that Hal Lindsey had ever prophesied. Are you sure about that Azure? To the best of my knowledge he has spent his career interpreting prophetic scriptures in light of world events. He's been wrong a lot and probably should be ignored but, I don't think he should be classed as a false prophet for that.

My wife's Grandfather in the middle of some theological discussion with me said "You Baptists think your right and everybody else is wrong". My response was to ask him if he thought he was wrong. He didn't respond. My point is that someone is right. Maybe not on everything but, on the important things like: Who is God and what does He want from me? Now I've been told that India alone has more than a million gods. As someone has pointed out already within Christianity there is a wide variety of sects who think they are right. Each would have a slightly different answer to that question(Who is God and what does he want from me?). Ultimately all but one answer will be wrong. That should be sobering to us all. The Atheists are staking their eternity on having the right answer to the question just as much as I am as a Baptist or someone else is as a Mormon. But because the odds are against me or the next guy being right should we be silent and think we're somehow wrong? I think not. We should walk by and express what we know to be true until proven wrong. How else should a person live? Determine in your heart and head what is true and live it out. Never close your eyes to others answer to the question but, until you find a more probable answer than your own you run with what you believe. If in the end I find my self standing before God and I got the answer wrong at least I'll know I made the attempt.

Great post!

In the past I've struggled with that question: "How do we know what we believe is right and what the Mormons/JW's/anyone else believe?"

As you seem to be saying, it all comes down to faith. Believe what you believe with everything you have and live it out.

[photon]

I think you got the part about Atheists subtly wrong.. they're not staking their eternity on having the right answer, they're saying there's no evidence of any God or Gods and therefore have to believe the resulting position; most Atheists would change their position if confronted with compelling evidence.

Of course some would say that precludes faith, but then again Paul was knocked off his horse and made temporarily blind; hard not to believe after that, but that's not faith. Witnessing a miracle, audibly hearing the voice of God, or having a vision would reduce faith since it would be evidence.

"We should walk by and express what we know to be true until proven wrong." That doesn't really make any sense though, because if you know it to be true then it's been proven. It should be "believe it to be true". EDIT: At least given the general definition of "know", not a "know it in my heart" which is just another way of saying believe. And that illustrates the fundamental difference that separates the two sides; for one side the default position is to believe one is right until proven wrong, the other side the default position is to not believe until proven right.

[Manson?]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

My wife's Grandfather in the middle of some theological discussion with me said "You Baptists think your right and everybody else is wrong". My response was to ask him if he thought he was wrong. He didn't respond. My point is that someone is right. Maybe not on everything but, on the important things like: Who is God and what does He want from me? Now I've been told that India alone has more than a million gods. As someone has pointed out already within Christianity there is a wide variety of sects who think they are right. Each would have a slightly different answer to that question(Who is God and what does he want from me?). Ultimately all but one answer will be wrong. That should be sobering to us all. The Atheists are staking their eternity on having the right answer to the question just as much as I am as a Baptist or someone else is as a Mormon. But because the odds are against me or the next guy being right should we be silent and think we're somehow wrong? I think not. We should walk by and express what we know to be true until proven wrong. How else should a person live? Determine in your heart and head what is true and live it out. Never close your eyes to others answer to the question but, until you find a more probable answer than your own you run with what you believe. If in the end I find my self standing before God and I got the answer wrong at least I'll know I made the attempt.

The whole idea of "right and wrong" vis a vis heaven and hell , eternal life eternal damnation are originally Christian ideas. To be more specific, if Christianity comes from Sectarian Judaism, and Islam concedes both, Christianity is the first western religion that brought this element up. In early Hebrew religion the after-life never was mentioned, and even now, isn't a widely accepted aspect of modern Judaism. In Islam of course it exists but not to the 'fire and brimstone suffering' level of Christianity. There really is an in-or-out mentality that is so black and white in CHristianity that is hard to pin-point within any other religion. DIGRESSION(anything put above Allah ie the Christian messiah is shirk which is basically unforgiveable sin. A further digression, it is interesting to note how much devotion Muhammud receives from some Muslims. This could consider be considered shirk for the same reasons, no?)

My point if i can remember it now, is that you are viewing (or at least how I have interpreted your post) religion in a predominately Christian manner. Not that I can blame a Christian for having viewpoints within his accepted constraints. But really, do the semantically small differences between say a menonnite and a pentacostal christian or you, the baptist, make the difference between heavan and hell in your eyes??? Or were you using the getting the boot from God example as between you and say a Muslim.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Manson?

The whole idea of "right and wrong" vis a vis heaven and hell , enternal life enternal damnation are originally Christian ideas. To get more indepth, if Christianity comes from Sectarian Judaism, and Islam concedes both, Christianity is the first western religion that brought this element up. In early Hebrew religion the after-life never was mentioned, and is even now, isn't a widely accepted aspect of modern Judaism. In Islam of course it exists but not to the 'fire and brimstone suffering' level of Christianity. DIGRESSION(anything put above Allah is shirk which is basically unforgiveable sin-further digression but it is interesting how much esteem is put on Muhammud some would consider this blasphemy)

My point if i can remember it now, is that you are viewing (or at least how I have interpreted your post) religion in a predominately Christian manner. And really, do the semantically small differences between say a menonnite and a pentacostal christian make the difference between havan and hell in your eyes??? Or were you using the getting the boot from God example as between you and say a Muslim.

What he's saying is this:

Either there is a God or there isn't. Whatever your view, if you're wrong, you're wrong. So maybe there isn't a God or I worship the wrong one... well then either I'm hooped (I'm worshipping the wrong one,) or I'm not because there isn't a God and all my good deeds are for naught.

[Manson?]

Meh, Whether or not I missed the point of his post is irrelevent.
It's ######edly late to be posting anything on this matter..........

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Manson?

Meh, Whether or not I missed the point of his post is irrelevent.
It's ######edly late to be posting anything on this matter..........

Nah, you're not drunk enough. Drunk religious debates are my favorite! Bring it on!

[Daradon]

So bringing the thread back to the original topic, is it safe to say you're NOT going to the course/workshop/prayer meet CrazyFlamer?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

What he's saying is this:

Either there is a God or there isn't. Whatever your view, if you're wrong, you're wrong. So maybe there isn't a God or I worship the wrong one... well then either I'm hooped (I'm worshipping the wrong one,) or I'm not because there isn't a God and all my good deeds are for naught.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you've only done good deeds to benefit yourself, aren't your good deeds all for naught whether you are worshipping the right God or not? Won't the God you believe in know that you've been faking it?

Doing good things to help other actual living humans for their benefit, as opposed to just doing them to ensure a reservation in paradise for yourself, is not a waste of time.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you've only done good deeds to benefit yourself, aren't your good deeds all for naught whether you are worshipping the right God or not? Won't the God you believe in know that you've been faking it?

Doing good things to help other actual living humans for their benefit, as opposed to just doing them to ensure a reservation in paradise for yourself, is not a waste of time.

You're absolutely right that if I do good deeds to only benefit myself, my God will know I'm faking it.

But if there's no god, why should I bother wasting my time doing good deeds at all when I could be raking in the cash and getting intoxicated and having much sex? I mean really, which is the more preferred lifestyle? Sweaty sex with hot men, or toiling under the sun building houses for the homeless?

The question isn't about the deeds at all. The point is that someone is WRONG. Whether that's the Christians or Catholics or Muslims or Athiests, someone is WRONG and they are toiling towards their eternity or lack thereof by doing the wrong thing. IF there really is no God, I would rather be having a lot of sex and such. Because I believe in God, I don't. However, if it turns out that there isn't a God at all, I've just wasted a lot of good 'having sex years' for naught.

As an example which has nothing to do with the amount of sex I actually do or do not have.

[Skyceman]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you've only done good deeds to benefit yourself, aren't your good deeds all for naught whether you are worshipping the right God or not? Won't the God you believe in know that you've been faking it?

Doing good things to help other actual living humans for their benefit, as opposed to just doing them to ensure a reservation in paradise for yourself, is not a waste of time.

Correct Rogue.

The purest form of giving to me, regardless of whatever your belief system is, is when its done in private strictly for the receiver and no one knows or ever will know. That is the deepest part of being human.

From a Christian's perspective, Jesus said:

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You're absolutely right that if I do good deeds to only benefit myself, my God will know I'm faking it.

But if there's no god, why should I bother wasting my time doing good deeds at all when I could be raking in the cash and getting intoxicated and having much sex? I mean really, which is the more preferred lifestyle? Sweaty sex with hot men, or toiling under the sun building houses for the homeless?

The question isn't about the deeds at all. The point is that someone is WRONG. Whether that's the Christians or Catholics or Muslims or Athiests, someone is WRONG and they are toiling towards their eternity or lack thereof by doing the wrong thing. IF there really is no God, I would rather be having a lot of sex and such. Because I believe in God, I don't. However, if it turns out that there isn't a God at all, I've just wasted a lot of good 'having sex years' for naught.

As an example which has nothing to do with the amount of sex I actually do or do not have.

??? You shouldn't be doing good deeds with the hope of getting in heaven or because of the fear of damnnation. You should be doing them because it's the right thing to do. God or no god, saviour or no saviour.

Toil, challenge, and helping others is part of life and makes the word a better place.

Wouldn't that mean that an athiest or someone who doesn't believe in a heaven or god like yours would be an even better person for doing good deeds? There's lots of them out there. Lots of people don't need a god or religion to tel them what to do or why to do it. They do it because they are good compassionate people.

I also don't like all these comments (not just you) about 'someone' being right or 'someone' being wrong. It's assumptions like this that divide us. Besides it's more than probable we're all a little right, and we're all mostly incorrect. (Notice I didn't use the word wrong, because I don't see how beliefs should be judged wrong) It's a wonderous universe and we've barely scracthed the surface.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Daradon

??? You shouldn't be doing good deeds with the hope of getting in heaven or because of the fear of damnnation. You should be doing them because it's the right thing to do. God or no god, saviour or no saviour.

Toil, challenge, and helping others is part of life and makes the word a better place.

Wouldn't that mean that an athiest or someone who doesn't believe in a heaven or god like yours would be an even better person for doing good deeds? There's lots of them out there. Lots of people don't need a god or religion to tel them what to do or why to do it. They do it because they are good compassionate people.

I also don't like all these comments (not just you) about 'someone' being right or 'someone' being wrong. It's assumptions like this that divide us. Besides it's more than probable we're all a little right, and we're all mostly incorrect. (Notice I didn't use the word wrong, because I don't see how beliefs should be judged wrong) It's a wonderous universe and we've barely scracthed the surface.

Maybe you're missing the point, and maybe you're not. It's hard to tell as you're sticking to the fact that I said 'good deeds'. Fine. Let's make it personal. I was using examples, but let's make it personal.

I do good deeds all the time because it makes me feel good. I'm not about to stop doing good deeds, nor do I do them for my God necessarily. I have tried to abstain from sex, as well as intoxication, I've cleaned up my life, not for me, because I enjoy all those things, but for my God. Does not having sex make my life better overall? Ummmm... well.... So ignore the good deeds part, and let's focus on the other things Christians do for their God that they may be wasting their time on. Jehovah's Witnesses and their door knocking is an excellent example. If there really is no God, or there is one, but not the one they're praying to, they've wasted a lot of time. Or not celebrating birthdays? Birthdays are a fun time of celebration! They miss out on those. Muslims and their praying 5 times a day. They could get a lot more stuff done if they didn't have to do that, no? So ignore that 'good deeds' part, you're right, that's satisfying in it's own right. Look at the other aspects of religion.


How is it that an Athiest is partially right if there really is a God? How is it that a Christian is partially right if there is no god? There's no God but a heaven and hell anyways? There is an afterlife but no one runs the show there? That's a scary thought!

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Maybe you're missing the point, and maybe you're not. It's hard to tell as you're sticking to the fact that I said 'good deeds'. Fine. Let's make it personal. I was using examples, but let's make it personal.

I do good deeds all the time because it makes me feel good. I'm not about to stop doing good deeds, nor do I do them for my God necessarily. I have tried to abstain from sex, as well as intoxication, I've cleaned up my life, not for me, because I enjoy all those things, but for my God. Does not having sex make my life better overall? Ummmm... well.... So ignore the good deeds part, and let's focus on the other things Christians do for their God that they may be wasting their time on. Jehovah's Witnesses and their door knocking is an excellent example. If there really is no God, or there is one, but not the one they're praying to, they've wasted a lot of time. Or not celebrating birthdays? Birthdays are a fun time of celebration! They miss out on those. Muslims and their praying 5 times a day. They could get a lot more stuff done if they didn't have to do that, no? So ignore that 'good deeds' part, you're right, that's satisfying in it's own right. Look at the other aspects of religion.


How is it that an Athiest is partially right if there really is a God? How is it that a Christian is partially right if there is no god? There's no God but a heaven and hell anyways? There is an afterlife but no one runs the show there? That's a scary thought!

I do understand, you go back to this 'wasting time' paradigm or possibility 'I' 'you' 'us' 'them' are wrong paradigm. All I'm saying is live a good life and don't worry about all that. A good life can be lived that doesn't waste time and that doesn't worry about being wrong.

I don't think it's a simple as god or no god. God could be a variety of things from just a feeling of benevolence or the quirky strength of life and it's ability to grow everywhere, to an actual sentient being that directly controls things in the universe. We could be all part of a collective consciousness of life or godliness, or the puppets between 'god' and the 'devil'. And of course the myriad of possibilities in between.

It doesn't have to be so black and white and probably isn't. I think (cause I don't want to put words in your mouth) that you seem to be assuming god to be a sentient higer being that created the world directly, where lots of spiritualities often think of it as a force or even general rule or law. Obviously there is possibility for great variation within those extremes, not even counting the possibility of utter and completely godlessness in our universe.

Many problems, disagreements, and confusions come in our world because of our need to seperate things into black and white, and often the truth is found somewhere in between.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I do understand, you go back to this 'wasting time' paradigm or possibility 'I' 'you' 'us' 'them' are wrong paradigm. All I'm saying is live a good life and don't worry about all that. A good life can be lived that doesn't waste time and that doesn't worry about being wrong.

I'm not wrong enough to worry about being wrong this once...

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm not wrong enough to worry about being wrong this once...

Lol, I don't think anyone is wrong if they try to act morally. One must remember that most religious rules were most likely created by groups of men trying to control various populations of people or thought, and not by 'their god' or any 'god'.

I think people get to worried about religious rules, yet allow themselves to be weak in religious spirit. You can look at lots of racist or hypocritical people acting in the name of religion to see this, but might even know a few in your personal life that act like that in smaller ways.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

My assertion is that (in the vein of many religious writings being of or under cultural/political influence) the verse is simply a suggestion for the times by the writer who is giving his opinion. Same goes for so many of the things written by Paul taken by various Churches to be written-in-stone guidelines for how one must lead their lives or structure their entire religion when Paul himself basically says of many things that these are his words and not from God, therefore not divinely inspired and merely his opinion on issues asked of him.

I believe Paul only stated once that it was his words rather than the Lords. This was during instructions on marriage. I believe that he was differentiating between Christ's instructions which he had been quoting and
his own given under authority as an Apostle.

The question of how aware Paul and the other writers of the New Testament were that their writings would become canon is an interesting one. Peter calls Paul's letters scriptures but, were either of them aware while writing what they were producing?

[Cheese]

yes Im still here...and yes Ive been too busy to respond, until now.

The Alpha Course...

I am an atheist. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, demons or angels. There is no devil trying to tempt you to eat one more doughnut, drive a little faster, murder your neighbour, burn down a church or cheat on your partner. If you do something bad, it is your own fault and no-one else's.

Should we teach our children that they are under constant attack from evil, invisible demons, trying to get them to be naughty, and that if they do then they will horribly tortured forever? Or should we try to teach them respect for others and a sense of responsibility and accountability?

* Accept responsibilty for your own actions.
* Don't seek forgiveness from your deity - seek it from those you hurt.
* The Devil didn't make you do it. You did.



A familiar story, told from a different perspective


Maheem sat on the rock, frustrated at the cloudy sky. She normally enjoyed watching the sunset as she waited for her husband to return from the fields, but the unseasonal weather had thwarted her today. A storm is coming, she thought to herself, pulling the furs tightly around her body as the breeze became chilly. The baby had started crying, so she gathered up her tools and the basket of fruit and went inside, closing the door against the darkening sky.

Her child was quite beautiful - a little baby boy just four months old. The baby gripped her finger when she offered it to him, and this seemed to calm him somewhat. She sat down beside the crib and stroked the young one's forehead, singing him a lullaby that she remembered from her own childhood. The baby settled down and slowly drifted off to sleep once more, but she remained by him, singing quietly and waiting for her man to come through the door. What was keeping him? He should be back by now.

Quietly, she stood up and walked to the door, to see if she could see him before it became too dark. Going outside, she saw something that terrified her like nothing had done before.

The sky.

It was almost black, and the clouds were rolling and boiling as if they were alive, pouring across the sky from horizon to horizon like flowing tar. In the distance, a herd of antelope, normally so graceful, sprinted across the low ground in panic, trying to flee but not knowing where to go. An elephant was calling out in fear somewhere in the trees behind her, and thousands of birds were rising from the forest. There was no sign of her man, the gentle father of her child, the husband who she loved so dearly.

The child! She ran back inside and picked him up, holding him to her chest and folding the furs around him. She went to the entrance of the dwelling, praying that her husband would be in sight. He was not. Now the rains came. Rain like she had never seen before. There was hardly any wind, and the rain was falling vertically to the ground, as if it wanted to get there with no delay, as if it was being forced to the earth. Lightning flickered at the end of the valley, and the animals screamed, but she could not hear them above the sound of the rain. The parched land around the dwelling was turning into thick mud now, and beginning to wash away. The roof was being battered and starting to break up, and the small fire in the hut had been extinguished. Apart from the lightning, the world had gone completely black. Tears ran down her face as screamed in terror, and the baby had now begun to cry because of the cold, and the wet, and the noise, and the fear he could sense in his mother.

Maheem stood there, not knowing what to do, or where to run, or why this was happening, or where her husband was. Almost unbelievably, the rain increased in intensity until it had the ferocity of a waterfall. She slipped in the mud, and the water began to wash her down the slope. She could not open her eyes because of the strength of the rain, which felt like it was bruising her entire body. The baby in her arms, normally so gentle and quiet, was screaming in fear, and she desperately tried to keep the choking mud away from his mouth.

And then rain stopped. The world was still black, and Maheem pushed herself up onto her knees, hugging the baby and wiping the cold mud from him. Nothing. No noise but the sound of the thick, filthy waters draining past her. No rain.

Just darkness. Even the animals were silent. Shakily, she managed to get to her feet, trying not to slip in the darkness.

Maheem felt the ground tremble slightly beneath her feet, and felt her ears pop as the air pressure suddenly changed.

The wave came.

A thousand feet high, and travelling at nearly the speed of sound. It washed across the continent, obliterating everything in its path, scouring the rocks of all living things. Picking up trees, mud, rocks, people and animals as it went, it became more a solid than a liquid.

She had just enough time to turn round and scream before it hit her.

* * * * * *

Eight days later, the last contact Maheem had with other humans was when the Great Ark nudged her broken body aside, the lifeless child still held tightly in her dead arms, as it ploughed through the churning waters of the Flood.

© Adrian Barnett, 1998


a Video on Mormon Theology

Are Christians Delusional?


"Faith is powerful enough to immunize people against all appeals to pity, to forgiveness, to decent human feelings. It even immunizes them against fear, if they honestly believe that a martyr's death will send them straight to heaven. What a weapon! Religious faith deserves a chapter to itself in the annals of war technology, on an even footing with the longbow, the warhorse, the tank and the hydrogen bomb."
- Richard Dawkins, 'The Blind Watchmaker', endnotes to chapter 11 ("Blind faith can justify anything")