What if Sam Bennett has another good playoff performance?

[dammage79]

Well, good thing this coach and management have Bennetts back, because what a few fans have been saying for a long time seems to be the correct application of Sam Bennett.

Play Center, line him consistently with good players and yield positive results. So sorry for Sam Bennett detractors this week. No footing for you. Just enjoy the fact a Flames line had a physical and momentum changing series for the team.

Should probably give Trelivings interview on the Fan yesterday a listen. Sam Bennetts not going anywhere. Management has not and will not have it.

[Kovaz]

I think there are a lot of factors at play here that aren't as simple as "playoffs vs regular season", but they seem to all have shifted from working against Bennett to working for him at the same time.

Having a longer leash is a big one. In the past he's always been demoted very quickly, whether due to not producing or a bad turnover/penalty. He definitely forces plays that aren't there, but you can hardly blame him when every shift in the top 6 might be his last if he doesn't score. Being able to take a penalty and still keep his regular shift will go a long way towards calming down Bennett's play.

He's also a better centre than a winger. He's great at winning battles down low and I think he creates most of his offence by forcing turnovers in the middle of the ice and springing his wingers for an odd-man rush. He also back-checks pretty responsibly and I think he sees things better from the middle of the ice.

Having better linemates helps a ton too. I think his development was severely hurt by spending two years watching his passes clank off Brouwer's stick to the other team, and he started trying to do too much himself. Being able to chip the puck to Dube flying down the wing and have that turn into a chance helps him a ton. I've written this a bunch of times, but Bennett should have way more assists this year but his linemates have been awful at converting their chances.

The playoff style of game also suits Bennett way better. He's not great at recognizing soft spots in a defence or creating a wide open chance and he's not super creative with the puck, but he's good at grinding out a tough chance in the slot or forcing his way through a defence. In the playoffs those easier chances go away but the tough ones are still there, and since that's all Bennett does it fits him better.

So I think all four of those factors have turned at the same time and Bennett's looked good as a result, but I think having a stable 3C role with decent wingers would make a big difference for him.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I don't know, I also like to watch games and not just look at advanced stats. In the games I have watched, he isn't effective at all.

I don't really get it, what made him effective this past series is being physically engaged. Both of his goals were not necessarily pretty plays. He was engaged physically.. you don't need depth, or better linemates, or to play a position to hit and engage in the regular season.

Once again, his production going down every year is a big concern. Instead of blaming many different coaches for randomly "hating" Bennett.. why not consider the fact that Bennett couldn't make his linemates better and earn a bigger shot?

Most players don't just get handed all star linemates. They need to work their way up and that is something Bennett has not been able to do yet.

Well, not really. Sam Reinhart is a good example - kid struggled in very similar ways to Benny, but Buffalo kept him up and played him with better players and he developed. Most high draft picks get given good circumstances as part of their development. Hartley knew this and did it and it went great.

Bennett's rookie season he played with Backs and Frolik.

Only bad coaches feed young talented players to the wolves - and that's what Gulutzan did. Tree is to blame for also damaging the depth beyond recovery during those years due to signing Brouwer.

His effectiveness wasn't just that Bennett was physical, it was also that he was strong in the defensive zone as a centre and he was making smart plays with the puck. Why did it look smart? Certainly he didn't just all of a sudden wake up and figure stuff out. Nope, it's that his linemates helped him. Dube and Lucic understand the game, they understand playing with speed and urgency and they battle on the boards. I'm not sitting here trying to make a case Benny is a top 6 forward, I'm saying he's a 3rd line centre and an effective one. He needs competent linemates to help his game work, and he's finally got it. That's a big thumbs up to Ward as well for me.

Bennett's success isn't just because Bennett willed it himself. He has good linemates and the trust of his coach. He didn't get that under Gully or Peters, and until Jankowski proved himself incompetent, he didn't get the shot at centre under Ward - but now he has that opportunity and it's working.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I don't know, I also like to watch games and not just look at advanced stats. In the games I have watched, he isn't effective at all.

I’m pretty sure someone on CP is an optometrist. They might be able to solve whatever issue you’re experiencing.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

That’s nonsense. Tkachuk was given the same slot with Backlund and Frolik , the year after Bennett had it, and produced comparably as a rookie

Mangiapane was put with Backlund and had an 11 game scoreless streak and the coaches rode that out

And I like those guys, but it doesn’t magically create an alternate reality where Bennett had even quality linemates, never mind all star ones

One thing I do know is that people don’t like changing their mind, and their narrative. There is a lot behind that, which we won’t get in to.

You can throw all of the advanced stats forward, linemate data, and even let people watch the player’s actual performance, that they can see with their own eyes, when he is given consistent linemates - which many people have identified as an obvious challenge - and they still will stick to their own narrative

You are doing the same thing and not changing your narrative so settle down.

A guy like Bennett is getting praise because he is physical. To me, that puts him in the same category as guys like Glencross and Bourque who had to work their way up the lineup. Both those players were engaged physically every night and also put up points. Eventually, they both couldn't sustain the physicality after a few years but it was the reason they moved up the lineup. Bennett has shown none of that in the regular season.

As for better linemates.. Jankowski played well last season and did much better than Bennett. I guess he has been the reason Bennett doesn't want to really physically engage in the regular season. Jankowski might get mad if Bennett throws a hit.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Well, good thing this coach and management have Bennetts back, because what a few fans have been saying for a long time seems to be the correct application of Sam Bennett.

Play Center, line him consistently with good players and yield positive results. So sorry for Sam Bennett detractors this week. No footing for you. Just enjoy the fact a Flames line had a physical and momentum changing series for the team.

Should probably give Trelivings interview on the Fan yesterday a listen. Sam Bennetts not going anywhere. Management has not and will not have it.

I don't know what Treliving actually thinks.. but if you are trusting the GM on what he says to the media, you must be new to hockey.

[transplant99]

I have no issue keeping Bennett around, particularly if he can bring some of this playooff mentality to the regular season.

The question is though...how much do you pay a guy that averages less than 30 pts a year, who isnt a great contributor to getting to the post season, who still takes really questionable penalties....in the hopes he turns it up again come April?

I think he is vastly overpaid now. How do you get him at 1.5 - 2M a year (his worth IMO) going forward?

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

I think there are a lot of factors at play here that aren't as simple as "playoffs vs regular season", but they seem to all have shifted from working against Bennett to working for him at the same time.

Having a longer leash is a big one. In the past he's always been demoted very quickly, whether due to not producing or a bad turnover/penalty. He definitely forces plays that aren't there, but you can hardly blame him when every shift in the top 6 might be his last if he doesn't score. Being able to take a penalty and still keep his regular shift will go a long way towards calming down Bennett's play.

He's also a better centre than a winger. He's great at winning battles down low and I think he creates most of his offence by forcing turnovers in the middle of the ice and springing his wingers for an odd-man rush. He also back-checks pretty responsibly and I think he sees things better from the middle of the ice.

Having better linemates helps a ton too. I think his development was severely hurt by spending two years watching his passes clank off Brouwer's stick to the other team, and he started trying to do too much himself. Being able to chip the puck to Dube flying down the wing and have that turn into a chance helps him a ton. I've written this a bunch of times, but Bennett should have way more assists this year but his linemates have been awful at converting their chances.

The playoff style of game also suits Bennett way better. He's not great at recognizing soft spots in a defence or creating a wide open chance and he's not super creative with the puck, but he's good at grinding out a tough chance in the slot or forcing his way through a defence. In the playoffs those easier chances go away but the tough ones are still there, and since that's all Bennett does it fits him better.

So I think all four of those factors have turned at the same time and Bennett's looked good as a result, but I think having a stable 3C role with decent wingers would make a big difference for him.

Fair enough. I don't necessarily think that he will continue this but if he can be a legitimate 3C, sure. I just remember having similar conversations last year and he didn't do anything this year in the regular season. Maybe you are righr and that changes next season.

However, I also don't think the Flames should trade their core to give Bennett a shot next year like some posters were suggesting earlier in this thread.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I have no issue keeping Bennett around, particularly if he can bring some of this playooff mentality to the regular season.

The question is though...how much do you pay a guy that averages less than 30 pts a year, who isnt a great contributor to getting to the post season, who still takes really questionable penalties....in the hopes he turns it up again come April?

I think he is vastly overpaid now. How do you get him at 1.5 - 2M a year (his worth IMO) going forward?

We've got him for 2.55M next year.

Play him at centre, and see how it goes - and then you base his final RFA contract off of that success and where you believe he's trending.

2.55M is a very solid price for a 3rd line centre...not so much for a 4th line struggling winger.

Originally Posted by keenan87

Fair enough. I don't necessarily think that he will continue this but if he can be a legitimate 3C, sure. I just remember having similar conversations last year and he didn't do anything this year in the regular season. Maybe you are righr and that changes next season.

However, I also don't think the Flames should trade their core to give Bennett a shot next year like some posters were suggesting earlier in this thread.

Oh I'm definitely in agreement - no way in hell I'm suggesting the Flames move on from Backlund or Monahan in any way next year, however Ryan would be an awesome teacher for some younger players on the 4th line. If Lucic - Bennett - Dube can stick together, I think some younger Flames will benefit from being iced with Ryan on the 4th line (and then you keep pumping PK time into Ryan to keep his minutes up).

I still look at this regular season as Bennett playing in poor circumstances. I actually can't understand why Jankowski got as much rope as he did other than the lack of depth in the bottom six. On a better team, Jankowski is put on waivers at some point this past season. He was so bad.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m pretty sure someone on CP is an optometrist. They might be able to solve whatever issue you’re experiencing.

Don't have insurance right now, can you e-transfer over some money for a test and glasses? Maybe even some more money for sunglasses as I hate the glare when I am driving.

Thanks, please pm me and I will give you my email.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I don't care what Treliving actually thinks.. but if you are trusting the GM on what he says to the media, you must be new to hockey.

Or....And hear me out on this, your opinion is wrong and your condescending remarks mean you have no idea what you're actually talking about so you just try to keep belittling others. Its your MO after all. I can't wait.for your next snide post.

I know it must be hard to watch other fans have a minute of happiness that a player measured some good success in a formula they've been asking for for so long.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

We've got him for 2.55M next year.

Play him at centre, and see how it goes - and then you base his final RFA contract off of that success and where you believe he's trending.

2.55M is a very solid price for a 3rd line centre...not so much for a 4th line struggling winger.

So, we are just taking Ryan back out to the shed? Where is he supposed to play after he has ACTUALLY made his linemates better and has contributed offensively. Are you suggesting we lock up 3+ mil on the fourth line center spot?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by keenan87

You are doing the same thing and not changing your narrative so settle down.

A guy like Bennett is getting praise because he is physical. To me, that puts him in the same category as guys like Glencross and Bourque who had to work their way up the lineup. Both those players were engaged physically every night and also put up points. Eventually, they both couldn't sustain the physicality after a few years but it was the reason they moved up the lineup. Bennett has shown none of that in the regular season.

As for better linemates.. Jankowski played well last season and did much better than Bennett. I guess he has been the reason Bennett doesn't want to really physically engage in the regular season. Jankowski might get mad if Bennett throws a hit.

You seem to have trouble with the concept. When you have a narrative, and it turns out to be correct, why on earth would you change it?

Now when people stick with a narrative that is not supported by observable information, that is what I am speaking about. Most people are very uncomfortable being presented with information contrary to their narrative, and rather than change their narrative, they find a way to bend their narrative.

In this case, Bennett is given the opportunity people have proposed he needed, responding and playing well. Most people recognize that for what it is

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by keenan87

So, we are just taking Ryan back out to the shed? Where is he supposed to play after he has ACTUALLY made his linemates better and has contributed offensively. Are you suggesting we lock up 3+ mil on the fourth line center spot?

What a silly straw-man. We had Stajan manning the back for years, we're used to having an overpriced 4C lol. Point is, if he's playing better than Ryan he deserves that lineup spot.

[Bonded]

Bennett is getting a longer leash because he isn't taking as many penalties. I think part of the reason he looks so much better in the playoffs is that the whistles get put away a bit.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by keenan87

So, we are just taking Ryan back out to the shed? Where is he supposed to play after he has ACTUALLY made his linemates better and has contributed offensively. Are you suggesting we lock up 3+ mil on the fourth line center spot?

We've got him for 1 more season. I think his defensively sound game would be beneficial - if we can afford the cap space allocation to the a 4th line we can routinely roll. That's what good teams get to do. Ryan + Gawdin + someone could be a pretty damn effective line.

Ryan could act like a mentor for young players, something Benny never really got on the ice after his rookie year. Dube's ELC next year gives us a cheap 3rd line player - so balance that by having a bit more expensive 4th line centre and put him with two cheap contracts. Also, keep feeding Ryan PK time to get his minutes up. This is how you "fix" the bottom six for the Flames in my eyes.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Or....And hear me out on this, your opinion is wrong and your condescending remarks mean you have no idea what you're actually talking about so you just try to keep belittling others. Its your MO after all. I can't wait.for your next snide post.

I know it must be hard to watch other fans have a minute of happiness that a player measured some good success in a formula they've been asking for for so long.

You know, there is an ignore feature on this website that you can use if you don't like my posts. Man, do I have to teach you everything?

1. Don't trust the GM
2. Use the ignore function and be happy

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

What a silly straw-man. We had Stajan manning the back for years, we're used to having an overpriced 4C lol. Point is, if he's playing better than Ryan he deserves that lineup spot.

But maybe he really isn't playing better than Bennett. This past season, Lucic-Ryan-Dube was a legitimate line.

Who is to say that isn't a more effective line than Bennett at centre. If it is as effective, then Bennett shouldn't be paid 2.55 MM because he will be back on the fourth line and won't contribute anything with bad linemates..

Or the Flames can give some young AHL forwards a shot in the NHL instead of guys like Rieder and Rinaldo.. maybe that will help the fourth line avoid becoming a dark hole.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You seem to have trouble with the concept. When you have a narrative, and it turns out to be correct, why on earth would you change it?

Now when people stick with a narrative that is not supported by observable information, that is what I am speaking about. Most people are very uncomfortable being presented with information contrary to their narrative, and rather than change their narrative, they find a way to bend their narrative.

In this case, Bennett is given the opportunity people have proposed he needed, responding and playing well. Most people recognize that for what it is

So if he sucks again next year as center on the third line, you will agree that you were wrong right? Or will it just be another year for young Bennett to learn and grow.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by keenan87

You know, there is an ignore feature on this website that you can use if you don't like my posts. Man, do I have to teach you everything?

1. Don't trust the GM
2. Use the ignore function and be happy

1. Trust the GM who has now built a consistent playoff team? Knows what he is talking about as opposed to trusting the eye test of a consistently grumpy and condescending poster on the interwebs? Okie dokie!

2. Doesn't work, if I still have to get through Ricardo posts even when that one is on ignore, I can't imagine being able to not read your little rays of sunshine.