[News] Flames to receive EDM 3rd (Oilers choose between 20 and 21) in Lucic trade

[Coach]

I feel like this gif is sorely missing from this thread.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by MrMike

As soon as they decided to pro-rate player stats for bonus purposes this was almost a for sure done deal. It set a precedence and good luck over turning that.

Yup exactly. I would have been fine with no pick had there been no pro-rating in other stats. But everything else got pro-rated. Therefore so does this and the pick is due.

I would say this even if the roles were reversed and it was the Flames' pick going the other way. Can't pick and choose what you pro-rate.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

I agree with your conclusion that because 82 games weren't played adjustments needed to be made, but I disagree with how you got there.

Conditions are exactly what they are. If the conditions are not satisfied, the results arising from those conditions should not follow. I think there's a distinction between trade conditions and performance bonuses because I would not be surprised at all if a performance bonus clause explicitly stated "prorated to an 82 game schedule". I doubt a trade condition would have a similar provision.

My argument for the Flames would have been, instead of focusing on pro rating to an 82 game schedule, whether Neal may or may not have reached 21 goals, etc., instead use an intent of the parties and unforeseen circumstances argument. The intent of the condition was probably that EDM and CGY figured that Neal will likely bounce back and get around 20 goals, and that Lucic is what he is, and based on that, the trade included a 3rd coming our way. However, if Neal did not actually bounce back and continued to suck, then it would be a 1 for 1. What actually happened was Neal did bounce back a little bit and so the intent of the condition was met. In addition due to unforeseen circumstances, the teams weren't able to play a full 82 game season, which is not the Flames fault. Therefore award the pick. Gets us to the same place.

The issue with pro rating goals is that it's a slippery slope and sets a poor precedent with a lot of uncertainty. Should Ovi get prorated to 50 goals this season, etc.

Any time you refer to a “slippery slope” your point of concern is probably bunk. This is a lot of nonsense. Performance bonuses being prorated? Nah, they generally aren’t, and we know they aren’t because (until this season) player literally had to hit them in full to get their bonuses, and they specifically had to agree to prorate them in the Return to Play agreement.

Everyone barking up the “conditions are conditions” tree, yeah, great, even some Oiler commenters on ############ think they should sue the league (which gives me thundering levels of schadenfreude). Fact is, conditions are based on an 82 game season being played, which for reasons outside of any individual player, wasn’t possible. So they’re prorating the things that matter (bonuses, trade agreements). Easy peasy.

I swear people just love to overthink the dumbest things. Flames get a pick and still some people want to “well, actually!” it. The NHL could’ve forced the Oilers to give the Flames their 1st and I would’ve said “yes, thank you, more please.”

[Enoch Root]

Exactly. As soon as they announced they were prorating performance bonuses, this cake was baked.

Not surprised at the reactions from mulletville and their media either. They add a nice dollop of whipped cream on top of the cake.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Time to set expectations here. The third rounder is a pick the Flames haven't had much success with, if they elected to keep it at all. The list of third round picks include:

2019 - Ilya Nikolaev
2018 - no pick
2017 - no pick
2016 - Adam Fox
2015 - no pick
2014 - Brandon Hickey
2013 - Keegan Kanzig
2012 - Jon Gillies
2011 - no pick
2010 - Max Reinhart, Joey Leach
2009 - Ryan Howse
2008 - Lance Bouma
2007 - John Negrin
2006 - John Armstrong, Aaron Marvin
2005 - Dan Ryder
2004 - Brandon Prust, Dustin Boyd
2003 - Ryan Donally
2002 - Matt Lombardi
2001 - no pick
2000 - no pick

Not a great list. To put that into perspective here's a list of top five players for games played coming out of that round.

2019 - none
2018 - none
2017 - Cale Fleury, Morgan Geekie, Michael DiPietro
2016 - Adam Fox, Joey Anderson, Josh Mahura, Carsen Twarynski, Vitaly Abramov
2015 - Anthony Cirelli, Adin Hill, Samuel Montembeault, Jean-Christophe Beaudin, Dennis Gilbert
2014 - Brayden Point, Mike Amadio, Warren Foegele, Nikita Tryamkin, Juho Lammikko
2013 - Anthony Duclair, Brett Pesce, Mattias Janmakr-Nylen, Pavel Buchnevich, Jake Guentzel
2012 - Colton Parayko, Frederik Andersen, Shayne Gostisbehere, Esa Lindell, Jimmy Vesey
2011 - Vincent Trochek, Adam Lowry, Nick Cousins, Nick Shore, Blake Coleman
2010 - Radko Gudas, Joakim Nordstrom, Bryan Rust, Jordan Weal, Gregg McKegg
2009 - Cody Eakin, Reilly Smith, Tyson Barrie, Brayden McNabb, Nicolas Delauriers
2008 - Adam Henrique, Zack Smith, Michael Stone, Lance Bouma, Lori Lehtera
2007 - Alex Kilhorn, Yannik Weber, Robert Bortuzzo, Evengy Dadonov, Joakim Andersson
2006 - Cal Clutterbuck, Brad Marchand, Steve Mason, Ryan White, Eric Gryba
2005 - Kris Russell, Kris Letang, Jonathan Quick, Cody Fransen, Ben Bishop
2004 - Alex Edler, Andrej Sekera, Johan Franzen, Brandon Prust, Alexei Emelin
2003 - Clarke MacArthur, Daniel Carcillo, Colin Fraser, Ryan O'Byrne, Alexandre Picard
2002 - Valtteri Filppula, Frans Nielsen, Greg Campbell, Matt Lombardi, Erk Christensen
2001 - Tomas Plekanek, Patrick Sharp, Craig Anderson, Stephane Veilleux, Jay Harrison
2000 - Domenic Moore, Mike Rupp, Kurt Sauer, Ryan Bayda, Joel Lunqvist

It's a lottery ticket, and a lottery ticket that usually doesn't amount to a lot.

[PepsiFree]

That list also includes some of the best players in the game today/over the past decade.

That’s a lottery ticket worth having.

[Robbob]

A pick, no matter what round, is a magic box. It could be anything! Truth be told picks are usually worth more and depreciate after a player is picked.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Spoiler!

[1qqaaz]

Based on that list, it looks like the Flames have had good luck in the third round since 2010.

Jon Gillies - still in the organization
Kanzig - bust
Hickey - had value and was traded for Smith
Fox - possibly the best draft pick under Treliving
Nikolaev - a good prospect

Even Bouma, Prust, Lombardi, and Boyd were some of Sutter's better picks.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Any time you refer to a “slippery slope” your point of concern is probably bunk. This is a lot of nonsense. Performance bonuses being prorated? Nah, they generally aren’t, and we know they aren’t because (until this season) player literally had to hit them in full to get their bonuses, and they specifically had to agree to prorate them in the Return to Play agreement.

Everyone barking up the “conditions are conditions” tree, yeah, great, even some Oiler commenters on ############ think they should sue the league (which gives me thundering levels of schadenfreude). Fact is, conditions are based on an 82 game season being played, which for reasons outside of any individual player, wasn’t possible. So they’re prorating the things that matter (bonuses, trade agreements). Easy peasy.

I swear people just love to overthink the dumbest things. Flames get a pick and still some people want to “well, actually!” it. The NHL could’ve forced the Oilers to give the Flames their 1st and I would’ve said “yes, thank you, more please.”

Fair points. Given it some thought, maybe you're right about performance bonuses.

Like I said I'm glad we got the pick.

[monkeyman]

If the Oilers really want their third back, we should offer to trade it to them for a 2nd round pick.
it's the Oilers, it's worth a shot.
Giving Calgary the pick was the correct decision.

[Enoch Root]

Regarding that list of 3rd round picks...

4 NHLers from 17 picks, or 24%, doesn't sound that bad to me. Just about what you might expect, maybe even a little more. The Flames haven't hit any home runs in the 3rd round (yet), but there are home runs to be had.

You have to REALLY want to hate the trade in order to make the case that the pick doesn't have value.

[djsFlames]

You would've thought you'd have to inject a GM with a cocktail of heavy drugs to get a third for Neal after his year in calgary.

It definitely has value.

[Reggie Dunlop]

3rd Round Pick >>>> No pick

Lucic for Neal was basically a White Elephant gift exchange. The third round pick is just a nice shiny ribbon.

[albertGQ]

John Shannon:

Neither the Flames nor Oilers would move on their demands re:compensation in Lucic/Neal deal...hence it went the arbritration. Bottom line is the league supported pro-rated stats for full 82 game season...with the the 3rd round pick this year or next being the verdict.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

John Shannon:

Neither the Flames nor Oilers would move on their demands re:compensation in Lucic/Neal deal...hence it went the arbritration. Bottom line is the league supported pro-rated stats for full 82 game season...with the the 3rd round pick this year or next being the verdict.

Which is why we wouldn't move on our demands. Absolutely correct.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

John Shannon:

Neither the Flames nor Oilers would move on their demands re:compensation in Lucic/Neal deal...hence it went the arbritration. Bottom line is the league supported pro-rated stats for full 82 game season...with the the 3rd round pick this year or next being the verdict.

Lol. What exactly could the Oilers demands could have been? "Please dont take the pick? Pretty please?"

I can imagine BT just ignoring the calls from Holland. Like, guy, give us the 3rd or go to arbitration, where they'll give us the 3rd because that's what the rule is....so...whats there to even talk about here?

I'm sure the arbitrator enjoyed their fee at least.

[CaptainCrunch]

It will be even better when Neal's lack of character continues to reveal itself and he becomes the most hated Oilers (by Oiler fans) when their playoffs are over next week.


Mu hahahahaha

[getbak]

Ward rubs some salt in the wound...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1289633713416843264


Safe to say we won't hear the same thing from Tippett about Neal.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by transplant99

"buy"

Heh, I almost commented on that but I was busy trying not to drown in an ocean of greasy tears.