2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Another Flame out combined with no real opportunity to fix the roster and I agree 100%, a tear down is needed. It's poorly constructed team with limited cap flexibility and some key players aging quickly.

I think Treliving may get a bit more credit with the job he's done than he's due, but I think he had an acceptable approach in attempting to construct the team. Bennett not becoming a top 6 forward with the draft slot he was definitely hurt. I still think the team got too excited about the unexpected 2015-16 season and shifted course too soon. Although that may have been Burke and ownership influence making the team start trading picks for immediate help as opposed to a longer term build strategy. I think he has found out that getting players to come to Calgary is a bit of a challenge at times which got in the way of some moves that could have improved the team.

But he does have himself to hold accountable for some bad use of cap space, and not being able to get the goal tending situation stabalized for sure. He's traded a lot of picks which has left his system a bit depleted too. This is all fine if the team is a real contender, but this one really is not. They flashed a bit last year, but appear to be fizzling out. So we will see if they can re-ignite things or continue to fade away.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I think Treliving may get a bit more credit with the job he's done than he's due, but I think he had an acceptable approach in attempting to construct the team. Bennett not becoming a top 6 forward with the draft slot he was definitely hurt. I still think the team got too excited about the unexpected 2015-16 season and shifted course too soon. Although that may have been Burke and ownership influence making the team start trading picks for immediate help as opposed to a longer term build strategy. I think he has found out that getting players to come to Calgary is a bit of a challenge at times which got in the way of some moves that could have improved the team.

But he does have himself to hold accountable for some bad use of cap space, and not being able to get the goal tending situation stabalized for sure. He's traded a lot of picks which has left his system a bit depleted too. This is all fine if the team is a real contender, but this one really is not. They flashed a bit last year, but appear to be fizzling out. So we will see if they can re-ignite things or continue to fade away.

Yeah, the whole Bennett flame out really put this roster on it's ear. The timing couldn't be worse either, because his development was still sort of in limbo the summer of 2017, which was when the Flyers moved Schenn for a package similar to what the Flames paid for Hamonic.

I had no problem with the Flames moving some futures for immediate help, but hind sight tells us we could have used a top 6 C a lot more than a top 4 D with those assets, but at the time they probably still had high hopes for Bennett, and even Janko to a certain degree.

Might say the same the following summer when Buffalo moved ROR....to the same dang team that Schenn went to. If the Flames add add either of those guys I don't think anyone is complaining right now.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, the whole Bennett flame out really put this roster on it's ear. The timing couldn't be worse either, because his development was still sort of in limbo the summer of 2017, which was when the Flyers moved Schenn for a package similar to what the Flames paid for Hamonic.

I had no problem with the Flames moving some futures for immediate help, but hind sight tells us we could have used a top 6 C a lot more than a top 4 D with those assets, but at the time they probably still had high hopes for Bennett, and even Janko to a certain degree.

Might say the same the following summer when Buffalo moved ROR....to the same dang team that Schenn went to. If the Flames add add either of those guys I don't think anyone is complaining right now.

I think this is where my irrational hatred of Janko stems. That season, after all of us had kept little to no expectations of that draft pick over time, he seemingly dominated in the AHL, and looked like a virtual guarantee to be a middle 6 NHL Centre. Not sure what happened to the guy but damn does he ever suck.

[powderjunkie]

By 2014, BT inherited a team that seemed to have a pretty strong future down the middle. Monahan with a solid enough rookie year, Backlund took a big step forward, Janko 2 years older (though progress uncertain), Colborne was 24 and started to bloom, Granlund coming off a good season in the A, and a no-brainer pick in Bennett. (perhaps a few other longshots like Jooris and Reinhart in the system, too)

It was all more/less on the right track for a few years after that, though having too many good players at C is the best possible problem to have. In 6+ years, I think the only bullets he has added to the [possible top 6 C] chamber were:

Lazar - reclamation, unlikely to be anything but a winger
Shinkaruk - reclamation, didn't seem to have future at C, either
Dubé - late 2nd round pick
Lindholm - 24, has blown expectations out of the water...still uncertain if he can be a great C or not

Derek Grant - already 25, 3C at best
Nick Shore - already 25, 3C at best
Alan Quine - already 25, 3C at best
I don't think you can count anyone picked after the 3rd round here, either. Pavelski (never a pure C due to roster circumstances), Craig Smith, Grabovski, and Pageau are the only Centres drafted 4th round or later who've had prolonged success as a 1/2/3C since Datsyuk.

Am I missing anyone?

I'm generally a BT booster, but focusing in on this inadequacy really has me questioning it.

[868904]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

By 2014, BT inherited a team that seemed to have a pretty strong future down the middle. Monahan with a solid enough rookie year, Backlund took a big step forward, Janko 2 years older (though progress uncertain), Colborne was 24 and started to bloom, Granlund coming off a good season in the A, and a no-brainer pick in Bennett. (perhaps a few other longshots like Jooris and Reinhart in the system, too)

It was all more/less on the right track for a few years after that, though having too many good players at C is the best possible problem to have. In 6+ years, I think the only bullets he has added to the [possible top 6 C] chamber were:

Lazar - reclamation, unlikely to be anything but a winger
Shinkaruk - reclamation, didn't seem to have future at C, either
Dubé - late 2nd round pick
Lindholm - 24, has blown expectations out of the water...still uncertain if he can be a great C or not

Derek Grant - already 25, 3C at best
Nick Shore - already 25, 3C at best
Alan Quine - already 25, 3C at best
I don't think you can count anyone picked after the 3rd round here, either. Pavelski (never a pure C due to roster circumstances), Craig Smith, Grabovski, and Pageau are the only Centres drafted 4th round or later who've had prolonged success as a 1/2/3C since Datsyuk.

Am I missing anyone?

I'm generally a BT booster, but focusing in on this inadequacy really has me questioning it.

I give Treliving a bit of a break at the centre position. It was clear that Monahan was going to at least be a legit second line centre and maybe a top line centre and they just drafted Bennett who for the first two seasons was tracking well as a first line centre so I can understand why he wasn't working too hard to find another young top line centre asset.

But I guess that's why you should always be looking. The saying is you can never have enough good defensemen. The same should be true for centres with top line potential.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I personally think if this team Flames out in these playoffs...I would be inclined to do a pretty harsh tear down and retool things. The team still has 2-3 years of significant cap bogey's that is going to make it hard to really upgrade what the current roster is.

Pretty harsh? Sorry, but its a complete rebuild. If you think this team needs major changes then those major chances start with everybody. There is no one that is protected. This core is rotten and needs to go.

The unfortunate thing is there is ZERO in the minors. NOTHING. Long shots are all that occupy slots on the Flames' prospect list, so a retool is virtually impossible as there is nothing to lean on in the system. This is a team that Treliving built, and if he believes it needs to be retooled, the retooling should start at his chair. He's built this team. He must be accountable for it.

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I think Treliving may get a bit more credit with the job he's done than he's due, but I think he had an acceptable approach in attempting to construct the team. Bennett not becoming a top 6 forward with the draft slot he was definitely hurt.

Yeah, Treliving deserves all the credit for this #### show. Frankly, the second he took on Milan Lucic's contract is the second he should have been put in a corner with a dunce cap on and not been allowed in any decisions with the hockey team. That was the last straw as far as I'm concerned. He rolled the dice and they came up snake eyes. He's done. Ownership just has to find the sack to make the move. When this team ####s the bed in this play-in, the opportunity will be there for the taking. Maybe we get a GM who can pick a ####ing coach?

Yeah, swinging in a pitch in the dirt on Bennett sucks. The reality is the kid was rushed and he never earned his spot in the show. He should have spent some time in the minors getting stronger and being successful before being thrown to the NHL wolves. Big mistake. I hope they don't do that crap again in the next 30 years.

I still think the team got too excited about the unexpected 2015-16 season and shifted course too soon. Although that may have been Burke and ownership influence making the team start trading picks for immediate help as opposed to a longer term build strategy. I think he has found out that getting players to come to Calgary is a bit of a challenge at times which got in the way of some moves that could have improved the team.

Burke was a distraction. He was not a good hockey mind. The game passed him by a long time ago, but he was good copy and provided a level of gravitas this team needed. He was a sideshow on the midway to the big event.

But he does have himself to hold accountable for some bad use of cap space, and not being able to get the goal tending situation stabalized for sure. He's traded a lot of picks which has left his system a bit depleted too. This is all fine if the team is a real contender, but this one really is not. They flashed a bit last year, but appear to be fizzling out. So we will see if they can re-ignite things or continue to fade away.

I would like to see this team with a quality coach. The Flames haven't had a quality coach since Sutter, and no, I am not suggesting we bring back a Sutter. The game has passed them by. But there are some damn good coaches available RIGHT NOW, and we're letting this team be run by a mediocre minor league mind. This team needs someone to pull the strings and create imbalance on the ice. This is well beyond the current coaching staff and something they are not learning. I think a good coach could get the most out of this team, including the whipping boys, and they could be quite dangerous. But when you saddle a thoroughbred with a bad jockey, you get bad results. Can you imagine Secretariat with out Turcotte?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by 868904

I give Treliving a bit of a break at the centre position. It was clear that Monahan was going to at least be a legit second line centre and maybe a top line centre and they just drafted Bennett who for the first two seasons was tracking well as a first line centre so I can understand why he wasn't working too hard to find another young top line centre asset.

But I guess that's why you should always be looking. The saying is you can never have enough good defensemen. The same should be true for centres with top line potential.

It was okay to have your chips all-in on Bennett+Janko (and the others) from 2014-2017, but since then the question marks on them have been getting bigger and bigger, the longshots have moved on, and BT seems to be just ignoring it and hoping for the best

[ComixZone]

I'm not sure why it gets viewed as a total "tear it down" rebuild if the team falls apart in the playoffs. We have a lot of great pieces, and a few key spots with issues.

Here's a really quick pivot:


To Buffalo: Johnny Gaudreau
To Calgary: 2020 1st round pick (8th Overall), 2021 1st round pick (lottery protected)

To New Jersey: Noah Hanifin
To Calgary: 2020 1st round pick (ARZ - 11th Overall)

I think it's safe to say those two players would return the picks listed above (whether or not they're good deals I'm ignoring - just showing how to quickly get the picks to rebuild)

Attack in free agency:

Taylor Hall (7 years, 8M AAV)
TJ Brodie (6 years, 4.55M AAV)
Robin Lehner (6 years, 7M AAV)

Flames draft 8th, 11th, 13th, and 48th in 2020.

8th: Marco Rossi or Jake Sanderson
11th: Jack Quinn, Anton Lundell, or Yaroslav Askarov
13th: Anton Lundell, Dawson Mercer, or Seth Jarvis - or of course Alexis Lafreniere if we win the lottery.

Then, very importantly, hire a better coaching staff (incl. head coach and goalie coach).

Hall - Monahan - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Backlund - Tkachuk
Lucic - Bennett - Dube
? - Ryan - ?
?

Giordano - Brodie
Valimaki - Andersson
Mackey - ?
?

Lehner
Rittich

I think that team is as good if not better than this year's team plus we have Pelletier and the fruits from the 2020 draft coming up the pipeline.

A lot of this hinges on Taylor Hall buying into the now and the future of that roster. If Hall doesn't buy in, you probably let Brodie walk as a free agent as well and treat 2021/2022 as more of a rebuild year, but then you've got a number of young players coming the next year and a pretty sizeable chunk of cap space. Also, if Hall doesn't sign - then yeah, go throw 11M at Matthew Barzal and see how it plays out.

[powderjunkie]

I should add that I put the blame on the accelerated rebuild mostly on Burke (and ownership). It seems he didn't learn his lesson from the TOR fiasco, even if this time the Hamilton trade worked out really well (in isolation).

Once the horse left the barn it's hard to reign it back in. The team gets a little too good to have much chance at a top 5 pick. It becomes harder to demote Monahan to 2C for a season so he can focus on developing a more complete 200ft game. Limited patience with Bennett. Losing Byron instead of 30 year olds. Keep wasting picks on goalies. It's a negative feedback cycle.


We're very fortunate to have ended up with Tkachuk. Keller or Sergachev would have been nice enough, but the rest of the top 15 is pretty mediocre (so far).

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It was okay to have your chips all-in on Bennett+Janko (and the others) from 2014-2017, but since then the question marks on them have been getting bigger and bigger, the longshots have moved on, and BT seems to be just ignoring it and hoping for the best

He should have known by 2018 IMO, and should have been hard after ROR. I remember saying that then, but many people felt ROR was a locker room cancer and that we had Bennett to become a top 6 C still. My retort was that if Bennett did indeed become a top 6 C, what a great problem to have, and that ROR had also played lots on the wing as well.

However, BT hasn't been ignoring it and hoping for the best. After the last playoff he successfully negotiated a trade for the very good top 6 C that he knew the team needed but unfortunately that player had trade protection and didn't want to come here. Treliving knew the biggest weakness and worked to fix it, but to circumstances beyond his control it didn't happen.

You can say he should have made other moves, but top 6 C's do not become available very often.

I suspect that if the Flames crap out again this post season, Treliving will be working hard to acquire again what he knows the team needs, and I suspect he will be more aggressive than ever, especially with some teams in serious trouble because of the cap.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I'm not sure why it gets viewed as a total "tear it down" rebuild if the team falls apart in the playoffs. We have a lot of great pieces, and a few key spots with issues...

Then goes on to list a number of trades/moves that are highly unlikely to happen.

You can only count on what you have to work with, not pipe dreams. The Flames currently have very little to work with and would have to sell off any talent they have for draft picks, then hope like hell they don't go Sam Bennett (NEVER go full Sam Bennett). It doesn't matter who you pick up in free agency, the second you trade proven top six assets for magic beans (draft picks) you are making the team weaker and initiating a full on rebuild.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Then goes on to list a number of trades/moves that are highly unlikely to happen.

You can only count on what you have to work with, not pipe dreams. The Flames currently have very little to work with and would have to sell off any talent they have for draft picks, then hope like hell they don't go Sam Bennett (NEVER go full Sam Bennett). It doesn't matter who you pick up in free agency, the second you trade proven top six assets for magic beans (draft picks) you are making the team weaker and initiating a full on rebuild.

Any trade a fan on here lists is highly unlikely to happen, but if the Flames do a tear down and those players are traded, they should net a very big package of futures, so his point stands.

But yeah, selling off pieces of our core is definitely risky, and does not guarantee future success.

[Poe969]

If this team doesn't have some success these playoffs, keeping this core together has a worse chance of future success.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by New Era

Pretty harsh? Sorry, but its a complete rebuild. If you think this team needs major changes then those major chances start with everybody. There is no one that is protected. This core is rotten and needs to go.

The unfortunate thing is there is ZERO in the minors. NOTHING. Long shots are all that occupy slots on the Flames' prospect list, so a retool is virtually impossible as there is nothing to lean on in the system. This is a team that Treliving built, and if he believes it needs to be retooled, the retooling should start at his chair. He's built this team. He must be accountable for it.



Yeah, Treliving deserves all the credit for this #### show. Frankly, the second he took on Milan Lucic's contract is the second he should have been put in a corner with a dunce cap on and not been allowed in any decisions with the hockey club. ?

The trade for Lucic actually helped Calgary.

It gave them some extra cash to spend and exchanged some very bad players.


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[gvitaly]

An unlikely trade I would like to see happen would be around Monahan(with $1.375M retained) for Point. That way the lightning, who are in a cup crunch get Monahan at $5M for 3 seasons. It would be a sweet deal for the lightning. Meanwhile the Flames get point at around $8M(6.75M plus the retained salary) for 2 seasons, plus another RFA season.


I am actually not sure which team is better off from such a deal, and which will need to add. As I think Monahan could be a PPG center as a part of the lightning. I am also not sure, how much better Point would actually be in Calgary, as he benefits quite a bit from having Stamkos as a huge threat.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

An unlikely trade I would like to see happen would be around Monahan(with $1.375M retained) for Point. That way the lightning, who are in a cup crunch get Monahan at $5M for 3 seasons. It would be a sweet deal for the lightning. Meanwhile the Flames get point at around $8M(6.75M plus the retained salary) for 2 seasons, plus another RFA season.


I am actually not sure which team is better off from such a deal, and which will need to add. As I think Monahan could be a PPG center as a part of the lightning. I am also not sure, how much better Point would actually be in Calgary, as he benefits quite a bit from having Stamkos as a huge threat.

I can’t see TB trading Point even for a retained Monny.

I don‘t think I’ve ever seen a similar deal like this.

The one thing the Blackhawks model has taught me is that they keep at all cost their core players and bargain with the rest. And they have 3 SC’s to back up their strategy.


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[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The trade for Lucic actually helped Calgary.

It gave them some extra cash to spend and exchanged some very bad players.

No, the Lucic trade has hurt Calgary. That contract is absolute poison. Unless they find a way to encourage Lucic to retire the Flames are stuck with that albatross. We're stuck with that garbage for another three seasons. If you are looking or a major reason why the Flames can't improve the top six it is because they have Lucic's contract in the bottom six paying a player top six money who is providing bottom line performance. The fact the team has almost $8.5M tied up in two bottom six players is brutal.

[gvitaly]

That's true but I see Tampa losing some players this off season no matter what they do. This way they get an amazing contract for 3 years. Even though they give up a pretty good contract as well. That said it might make their forward group a bit more balanced. In a way, I am not even sure how much of an upgrade point would be as he is the garbageman for Tampa the same way Monahan is at least in terms of offense, and the PP. He is more rounded than Monahan, but I am not sure how big the difference between the two would be.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

However, BT hasn't been ignoring it and hoping for the best. After the last playoff he successfully negotiated a trade for the very good top 6 C that he knew the team needed but unfortunately that player had trade protection and didn't want to come here. Treliving knew the biggest weakness and worked to fix it, but to circumstances beyond his control it didn't happen.

I would have been fine with Kadri, but a 2C who was about to turn 29 with 3 more years on his contract isn't really what I had in mind in terms of maintaining quality in the C development pipeline.

If I were a GM, I'd have a goal to spend a 1st rd pick on a C at least every 3 years; two 2nds or better every 2 years, a 3rd rd pick or better every single year (at least until I had a legit 1-2 punch with term). As a bonus, this framework might have helped prevent the Hamonic trade.

It's the hardest piece to acquire...usually you need a top 2 pick, but it's certainly possible later with enough discipline and patience. It's far easier to luck into gems at other positions.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by New Era

No, the Lucic trade has hurt Calgary. That contract is absolute poison. Unless they find a way to encourage Lucic to retire the Flames are stuck with that albatross. We're stuck with that garbage for another three seasons. If you are looking or a major reason why the Flames can't improve the top six it is because they have Lucic's contract in the bottom six paying a player top six money who is providing bottom line performance. The fact the team has almost $8.5M tied up in two bottom six players is brutal.

They would have been stuck with Neal, exact same scenario, but now with a bunch of saved money.

The Neal contract was just as bad.


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