2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[AC]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nearly every offensive statistic over the last five years.

Hall has better numbers/60 on the powerplay. That's it.

Gaudreau is the better player. Hall will be a slight downgrade.

While I agree, Gaudreau is only so useful if he isn't able to rewrite the narrative of his inability to play in the playoffs.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Career numbers? Ability to stay healthy? On ice vision and hockey IQ? Are you really saying you would prefer Taylor Hall to Johnny Gaudreau? I would bet 31 GM's would disagree with you.

It's a tough question as they are so different as players. Johnny has been an offensive dynamo, but he's coming off a lackluster year and is so one dimensional.

If they were both UFA' s today, I would suggest that there would be a reasonable number that would choose Hall.

How many? I haven't the slightest idea. But I would bet it would be more than zero.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It's a tough question as they are so different as players. Johnny has been an offensive dynamo, but he's coming off a lackluster year and is so one dimensional.

Is Hall really much better in regards to being multi-dimensional though?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Is Hall really much better in regards to being multi-dimensional though?

That's very fair question.

Hall is 6'1", 205 lbs. vs. Johnny's 5'9", 165.

That's a pretty big difference when it comes to the tighter checking in the playoffs.

[powderjunkie]

I've never really seen the case for urgently acquiring Gaudreau from the Flyers side. He is certainly an upgrade, but I'm not sure the fit is really there from either a roster, cap, or expansion perspective.


Forgetting acquisition cost for a moment, I'll pose a theoretical question I find somewhat interesting: would you rather have:
1. Voracek for 4 more seasons at 8.25
or
2. Hall for 7 more at the same number (though I'm not convinced it will be that low)

Voracek is actually 4 months younger than Backlund, and their deals end at the same time (both turning 35 as the deal ends). It is reasonable to have concerns about the backside for sure...Hall would also be 35-36 as his deal ends.

Hall's upside is certainly higher, but the consistency and durability isn't really there. Voracek fills a more pressing need on the right side, and he seems to be rounding out his game a bit more to be a savvier 2-way player, though it's still probably a bit of a wash with Hall.

If this team isn't a contender in 3-4 years, you can probably recover more value sooner from Voracek at a TDL.

To be clear...I don't actually want Voracek...but, I don't want Hall either. In a theoretical 'free' scenario, I would choose Voracek.

I think Voracek will be a net positive value asset for the duration of his contract...I think he's a likely target for Seattle...seems probably that he and/or JVR will be left exposed (not certain on status of Philly's younger guys)


If guys like Cozens, Cirelli, etc. are unattainable, I would absolutely consider something based around Gaudreau for Frost+Voracek+...I think we could extract even more value by adding Derek Ryan 50% retained.

[Roof-Daddy]

I still don't get why this is confusing to some fans here.

I bet 99% of Flames fans if given the choice would choose Gaudreau over Hall in an instant if we could sign either tomorrow for 7 years at the same AAV.

But we can't. Gaudreau is a UFA in two seasons and whether you want to admit it or not, he is a MAJOR FLIGHT RISK until he actually signs an extension.

So those of us who want to sign Hall this off season want to do it for asset management purposes, not because we think he's a better option than Johnny. We just think having Hall plus Johnny for a year, or Hall plus a huge return for Johnny, is better than having no Hall, no Johnny and a huge return for Johnny, or even worse no Hall, no Johnny, and NO return for Johnny either because he F-ed off as a UFA.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nearly every offensive statistic over the last five years.

Hall has better numbers/60 on the powerplay. That's it.

Gaudreau is the better player. Hall will be a slight downgrade.

I'm not really arguing that Hall is the better player here. I think when all factors are taken into account the differences are marginal. Gaudreau may be the better player (I would probably give him the edge), but it is definitely arguable. So IMO, losing Gaudreau and gaining Hall is basically a wash.

[Hockey-and_stuff]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

That's very fair question.

Hall is 6'1", 205 lbs. vs. Johnny's 5'9", 165.

That's a pretty big difference when it comes to the tighter checking in the playoffs.

It will help him fight through checks, which may help Hall out produce Gaudreau in the playoffs.

I'd agree that both Hall and Gaudreau are one dimensional players. They're all offense. I don't think either player has a huge edge on the other when it comes to defense.

[JJolg]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Taylor can't even get to the playoffs unless there is a pandemic and they let everyone in.

We're not much better off with the yoyoing going on with this current core. Johnny is what he is, a offence only player, he's on his way to being passed by much better all around players as Lindholm and Chucky. Hall has a shot that can be used on the pp and can't fight thru checking. Until Johnny learns to take some contact that other smaller players can he is strictly a perimeter player. I love what he can do when he has the puck and space but the reality is, it doesn't transfer to post season play

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[AC]

How Hall + Arizona do vs Nashville compared to Gaudreau + Calgary against the Jets will be interesting.

In Hall's MVP year he put up 93 points in 76 games (1.22 PPG) and despite getting destroyed by Tampa in 5 games, he still put up 6 points (1.20 PPG).

Last year Johnny put up 99 points in 82 games (1.21 PPG) and then only managed 1 assist in 5 games against Colorado (0.2 PPG), after only registering 2 assists in the 4 game sweep vs Anaheim the previous playoff year.

If you were given the choice of signing either player to a 7 year, $8M AAV contract, preference may come down to which player can produce to a 1st line level in the playoffs.

Gaudreau is one of my favourite Flames of all time, but if he's just an elite regular season player then it may be time to move on regardless. Maximizing his value in a trade makes a LOT of sense, even if you can't sign Hall to replace him.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I'm not really arguing that Hall is the better player here. I think when all factors are taken into account the differences are marginal. Gaudreau may be the better player (I would probably give him the edge), but it is definitely arguable. So IMO, losing Gaudreau and gaining Hall is basically a wash.

Whether they're a wash or one is a slight downgrade over the other is probably such a small difference that the debate is hardly worth it. So, I see what you're saying.

The biggest benefit, and why we should all want the Hall/Gaudreau replacement scenario, is the added assets from trading Gaudreau. Hall+assets for Gaudreau is a scenario every single person should be behind.

In an ideal world, those assets are expansion draft exempt. Otherwise there are more difficult decisions down the road. But we'll see.

[Jaydee]

Hall playing with Bennett would be a better playoff line than anything we have rn

[Flamenspiel]

Hall is also older, I think you get maybe2-3 good years from Hall before he falls off a cliff. So on two years you have 7-8 million of free cap space or the last 3-4 years of an aging Taylor Hall.

[rohara66]

I'm 100% on the Hall is over rated side... but if the Flames choke AGAIN this year then I'm completely on board with trying something different.



Johny out? Hall in? Dont' care, just do something different.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The biggest benefit, and why we should all want the Hall/Gaudreau replacement scenario, is the added assets from trading Gaudreau. Hall+assets for Gaudreau is a scenario every single person should be behind.

I generally agree, but I also think Gaudreau out, assets in. period. is also a reasonable scenario to support.

It hasn't really been working as constructed...making a marginal change that reduces available cap space seems unlikely to pan out in the short term before Tkachuk and others are due for raises and Gio declines (unless of course the assets for Gaudreau are shockingly good immediately, which is highly unlikely).

Needs to be a bigger shake up, risky as that may be. In no particular order:

1. Gaudreau out for best assets available (I'd love a Dylan Cozens with a side of Montour)

2. UFA money on the very best partners for Valimaki and Kylington (tons of options available that seem to have far less downside risk than Hall...perhaps goaltending, too and/or a cheap RHS forward.

3. Hanifin out for forward help

Also keeps more cap wiggle room open to capitalize on opportunities from teams who are tight to cap and/or expansion. Also helps breakup the LW logjam and makes room to put guys in their ideal positions (Mangiapane, Pelletier, etc.)

[dino7c]

Gaudreau would have an easier time in the playoffs if he wasn't the only player driving offence. In game 5 vs. the Avs I saw him busting his ass while most of the team was floating.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Whether they're a wash or one is a slight downgrade over the other is probably such a small difference that the debate is hardly worth it. So, I see what you're saying.

The biggest benefit, and why we should all want the Hall/Gaudreau replacement scenario, is the added assets from trading Gaudreau. Hall+assets for Gaudreau is a scenario every single person should be behind.

In an ideal world, those assets are expansion draft exempt. Otherwise there are more difficult decisions down the road. But we'll see.

Totally agree but how likely is getting Hall really? I am less confident than some...if you don't get Hall I don't see any way you improve the team by trading Gaudreau.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Gaudreau would have an easier time in the playoffs if he wasn't the only player driving offence. In game 5 vs. the Avs I saw him busting his ass while most of the team was floating.

The team might have an easier time if their best player didn't require the 2 most important players (possible 1-2Cs) to be on his line. To be fair, part of this lies with Monahan.

The best teams have better balance across their top 6/9; only the most stacked teams can deploy 3 of their best players on one line.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Totally agree but how likely is getting Hall really? I am less confident than some...if you don't get Hall I don't see any way you improve the team by trading Gaudreau.

If they can't get Hall, and they can't acquire a decent top 6 center, then they really need to think about doing a major retool before it's too late.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Totally agree but how likely is getting Hall really? I am less confident than some...if you don't get Hall I don't see any way you improve the team by trading Gaudreau.

Thankfully signing Hall would come first, so you can afford to make the decision after that. If the Flames don't get Hall and don't land another top line guy by the end of next season, you still probably have to trade Gaudreau, but at that point you're looking at making bigger changes across the team since the likelihood of you getting back a guy who can step into the top 6 immediately is low.