2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Even if Hanifin has room to grow, does his value to the team outweigh his potential value on the trade market? I'm just not sure it does. If we lost Hanifin, we'd still have Valimaki and Kylington on the left side (and it's not as if Giordano can't play top 6 for the remainder of his contract...). I think we're a strong team on the left. On the right, however? Brodie's contract status is up in the air (I hope we retain him) and Andersson is solid, but then there's really nothing there for the future. We should trade Hanifin for a RHD... someone like Dougie Hamilton

Hanifin for a right D is definitely a solid option, it'd be also nice if that D had some offense to his game. Two teams that jump out depth chart wise are the NYRangers and Buffalo.

Trouba - not coming to Canada again
DeAngelo - RFA, probably available
Fox - not likely coming to Calgary, but it'd be pretty funny and not the first time the Rags would trade someone who "chose" them
Lundkvist - If they could trade Hanifin to the Rangers for Lundkvist + I'd be mighty pleased

Ristolainen - Snow shut that down already
Montour - RFA, Sabres would need to add IMO
Miller - UFA in two years, already 27, Sabres need to add a LOT
Jokiharju - top 4 already, still on ELC...doubt he gets moved
Borgen - for Hanifin? Yeah maybe if they add the 8th overall


Seriously though, Hanifin to the Rags for Lundkvist plus Georgiev could really be something. He just put up better numbers than Karlsson did at the same age in the same league.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I really disagree with this excuse for writing Hanifin off as "what he is." Or writing any young player off based solely on the number of NHL games they've played.

Yes, NHL games played has a positive impact on development. No argument. But it's a positive impact, not the ultimate decider.

Human beings continue to develop mentally and physically past their teens. Science suggests mens brains and decision-making abilities aren't fully developed until about 25 or so (and matures even later than that). In terms of physical peak, most men reach it in their late 20s (if consistent physical activity and fitness is in play, which for hockey players it would be).

The science aside, you can look at the players I mentioned. None of Chara, Burns, or Gio were "what they were" after 400 games played. Many more lesser defencemen are true of that, too. Gio couldn't even make the NHL full time at 23, which is also true of many NHL defencemen.

Hanifin has achieved an impressive amount given his age, and is far ahead of many players at the same stage. He's still young, and given that 400 games is not some magical decider of what will be either, there's still plenty of potential left.

Mass mentioned that Hanifin reminds him of Ryan Murray, an older player who made the NHL later, has less games played, and scored less goals in the last 3 years combined than Hanifin has in any single season, including this pandemic-shortened one (along with less points overall). A player who, conveniently, had his best season so far at 25 (his 6th NHL season). The comparison doesn't make a lot of sense, but even if you wanted to take it, it would suggest that Hanifin has room to grow.

This is the same song we've heard countless times about Sam Bennett.

I'd like to give Hanifin the benefit of the doubt but I have not seen much, if any development from him over the last two years. He's a big, quick, but soft guy with average defending and average offense. Other than the brain development and maturity crap you're going on about, what part of his game leads you to believe he has a shot at becoming a top 2 defender? He will be turning 24 right around the start of the 2020-2021 season btw.

I say we cash in on him now, preferably for a top 6 C.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

To me, none of the players you mention are good enough quality. I think when I mention improving the centre ice position it's about pushing Monahan out of the #1 slot. The only way you do that in my eyes is through the draft. If you go look at the top scoring centres, the vast majority of them are still with the teams that drafted them.

(...how the hell we didn't outbid St. Louis for ROR is beyond me. Probably because of the fatal misreading of the team's centre depth and the fact that we had too much cap tied up in a bloated defence group)

Yeah, I don't think it's possible to push Monahan out of the #1 slot realistically. So you either need to add a really good 2C with upside (Cirelli) and fill other holes, or seriously consider tearing this thing down, because there is nothing in the pipe line that is going to become a #1C for the Flames in the next season or two...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

This is the same song we've heard countless times about Sam Bennett.

I'd like to give Hanifin the benefit of the doubt but I have not seen much, if any development from him over the last two years. He's a big, quick, but soft guy with average defending and average offense. Other than the brain development and maturity crap you're going on about, what part of his game leads you to believe he has a shot at becoming a top 2 defender? He will be turning 24 right around the start of the 2020-2021 season btw.

I say we cash in on him now, preferably for a top 6 C.

To set the record straight, I don’t think it’s likely Hanifin will ever be elite and if there is a great return (like a young top 6 C) then you do it 100 times over.

I just disagree with the premise that he is what he is or that we should move on from him for the sake of moving on from him (though I do think most people are looking for a big return). He’s got plenty of opportunity still to turn into a very solid 2nd pairing guy or even a debatable first pairing guy like Brodie. If he just was what he was, why would anyone give us a top 6 c or a great top 4 RHD?

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Mass mentioned that Hanifin reminds him of Ryan Murray, an older player who made the NHL later, has less games played, and scored less goals in the last 3 years combined than Hanifin has in any single season, including this pandemic-shortened one (along with less points overall). A player who, conveniently, had his best season so far at 25 (his 6th NHL season). The comparison doesn't make a lot of sense, but even if you wanted to take it, it would suggest that Hanifin has room to grow.

Similar in that both were very high picks that haven't really lived up to expectations. Murray stagnated and found himself out of the top 4, and (imo) Hanifin is heading in the same direction. Obviously Hanifin could turn it around and live up to expectations, but it just doesn't seem to me like there's been much progress this season vs. the last.
Of course they don't match up perfectly in terms of career numbers etc...

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

To set the record straight, I don’t think it’s likely Hanifin will ever be elite and if there is a great return (like a young top 6 C) then you do it 100 times over.

I just disagree with the premise that he is what he is or that we should move on from him for the sake of moving on from him (though I do think most people are looking for a big return). He’s got plenty of opportunity still to turn into a very solid 2nd pairing guy or even a debatable first pairing guy like Brodie. If he just was what he was, why would anyone give us a top 6 c or a great top 4 RHD?

I 100% agree that we shouldn't be looking to move on for the sake of moving on. I argued that we should cash him in now for a good forward in return, before his value (imo) begins to fall as his lack of growth becomes more evident around the league.

[TheScorpion]

Fwiw Columbus' top-4 is Jones, Werenski, Murray, and Savard

[Mass_nerder]

According to their depth chart, he's outside the top 4 (Gavrikov(?) is ahead of him apparently); however, I don't watch Columbus unless they're playing us, so obviously I don't have first hand knowledge.
Whatever though, I'm not looking to get into a discussion about Ryan Murray. Hanifin just reminds me of him, as outlined above.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

(...how the hell we didn't outbid St. Louis for ROR is beyond me. Probably because of the fatal misreading of the team's centre depth and the fact that we had too much cap tied up in a bloated defence group)

When teams make such bad trades, it might just be that their scouting/valuations are so far off that it doesn't matter what you bid.

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, I don't think it's possible to push Monahan out of the #1 slot realistically. So you either need to add a really good 2C with upside (Cirelli) and fill other holes, or seriously consider tearing this thing down, because there is nothing in the pipe line that is going to become a #1C for the Flames in the next season or two...

This exactly where I've been on this team since the COL series. Our chips were all-in on at least one of Bennett/Janko to at least reach Backlund level, and it didn't pan out. We've got some nice pieces everywhere else...it's time to cash some in and get some new bullets in the Centre chamber (Frost, Cozens, Cirelli, etc.). Gaudreau and Hanifin offer the best balance of expendability and return value.

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

According to their depth chart, he's outside the top 4 (Gavrikov(?) is ahead of him apparently); however, I don't watch Columbus unless they're playing us, so obviously I don't have first hand knowledge.
Whatever though, I'm not looking to get into a discussion about Ryan Murray. Hanifin just reminds me of him, as outlined above.

Murray was 21:26 last year (3rd on team) and 19:57 this year (4th on team). He's always been plagued with injuries. But in terms of being just kind of unremarkable, and a periphery core player, I agree he's similar to Hanifin.

[Harry Lime]

Offseason is going to be intriguing. I'd do Johnny and Hanifin to the NYR for Kakko, Lundquist and a first.

[TheScorpion]

That's definitely a trade. Don't want Lundqvist at all.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That's definitely a trade. Don't want Lundqvist at all.

Depends which Lundkvist.

Nils Lundkvist, yes.
Henrik Lundkvist, no.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Offseason is going to be intriguing. I'd do Johnny and Hanifin to the NYR for Kakko, Lundquist and a first.

This does nothing to correct the structure of the team. Where’s our improvement at centre ice?

If Gaudreau gets dealt and we don’t improve the centre ice position, this team is just straight up doomed.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

This does nothing to correct the structure of the team. Where’s our improvement at centre ice?

If Gaudreau gets dealt and we don’t improve the centre ice position, this team is just straight up doomed.

Lindholm, and the 1st.

The team takes a step back for at least 1 season, and still desperately needs another RHS in the top 9, but the overall roster construction and prospect cupboards would be moving in the right direction.

Though If Gaudreau and Hanifin are going in the same deal, I would want a more substantial upgrade at C, too (even if it's magic beans).

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Lindholm, and the 1st.

The team takes a step back for at least 1 season, and still desperately needs another RHS in the top 9, but the overall roster construction and prospect cupboards would be moving in the right direction.

Though If Gaudreau and Hanifin are going in the same deal, I would want a more substantial upgrade at C, too (even if it's magic beans).

New York’s 1st? Somewhere in the teens? That’s not how you improve the centre ice position. I don’t Lindholm has done anything in his career to show he can transition to centre and be better than Monahan or Backlund.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

New York’s 1st? Somewhere in the teens? That’s not how you improve the centre ice position. I don’t Lindholm has done anything in his career to show he can transition to centre and be better than Monahan or Backlund.

We haven't drafted a true C in the first round for 5 years.

Zavgo, Phillips, and Pelletier* are all tiny...not convinced any will play down the middle in the big show, and if they do, we'd probably still need 2 other strong C

Ruzicka might be bottom 6 at best.

If we're lucky, Dubé might become Backlund by the time Backlund is done.


We need more bullets in that chamber, yesterday.

The Blues are the exception to the rule in terms of how they acquired their top C's. Carter/Richards (Kopitar) and Brind'Amour/Weight (Staal) are pretty much the only other exceptions (behind elite at the time 1Cs)...everyone else has been homegrown.

Whether we can bolster with established C's or not, we need to draft more C's as high as possible.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

We haven't drafted a true C in the first round for 5 years.

Zavgo, Phillips, and Pelletier* are all tiny...not convinced any will play down the middle in the big show, and if they do, we'd probably still need 2 other strong C

Ruzicka might be bottom 6 at best.

If we're lucky, Dubé might become Backlund by the time Backlund is done.


We need more bullets in that chamber, yesterday.

The Blues are the exception to the rule in terms of how they acquired their top C's. Carter/Richards (Kopitar) and Brind'Amour/Weight (Staal) are pretty much the only other exceptions (behind elite at the time 1Cs)...everyone else has been homegrown.

Whether we can bolster with established C's or not, we need to draft more C's as high as possible.

I totally agree - and that's why the target in a Johnny trade should be a top 10 pick so we get the best shot at a top tier centre. Buffalo or New Jersey's 1st round picks (7th and 8th) would be two of my targets.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I totally agree - and that's why the target in a Johnny trade should be a top 10 pick so we get the best shot at a top tier centre. Buffalo or New Jersey's 1st round picks (7th and 8th) would be two of my targets.

Neither is likely interested in trading for Gaudreau in their current state, at least not in exchange for their picks. He's much more likely to be traded to a contender with a bit of cap room looking for an upgrade on 1LW, a team in "win now" mode that thinks he can put them over the top, even if it is at the expense of a promising prospect. So which contenders have a highly-rated centre prospect?

Probably the dream trade for the Flames would be with their 2020 2nd to Washington (which doesn't have its own 2nd this year) for Connor McMichael and Tom Wilson.

Why would the Flames do this? Well, for a middling team with no likely 1C or 2C in the pipeline, this would give them a potential top 6 centre, as well as a decent right-shot top 6 RW who's signed up until the Flames' next likely window to contend (around 2022-2023, at the prime of Tkachuk, Valimaki, Andersson, Pelletier, Hanifin, and Kylington's careers, with maybe Wolf or Parsons taking over in net). The top 9 would look something like Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm, Pelletier-McMichael-Wilson, and Dube-Backlund-Mangiapane.

Why would the Caps to this? Their window to win is now. Ovechkin is nearing the end of his contract, and his production is declining a bit. With his seeing-eye pinpoint passes, Gaudreau would be the best set-up man Ovy has ever had. With Gaudreau, a left-hand shot, playing RW and setting up Ovechkin's deadly right-hand shot on the LW, it wouldn't surprise me if Ovy got 60-70 goals and Gaudreau got 120 points. Sign Ovy for one more season, and you have two seasons as possibly the team with the best chance to win the Cup. Their top 6 would be Ovechkin-Kuznetsov-Gaudreau and Vrana-Backstrom-Oshie (scary!). They may give up more than they get back in trading McMichael at the beginning of his career, but if they win two Stanley Cups in the process, it will have been worth it (think back to the Niewendyk for Iginla trade). And they may have an above-average shot at re-signing Gaudreau.

With Wilson's cap hit being a bit less than Gaudreau's, the Flames could eat 25% of Gaudreau's salary to balance the cap. And how fun would it be to watch a Connor McMichael/Connor McDavid rivalry in the BOA?

One other intriguing possibility would be to again bundle Gaudreau with a 2nd to Colorado for Burakovsky and Alex Newhook. For the Flames, this would give them a top 6 LW to take 2nd line duties (RFA for UFA, but not at quite the same skill level, especially given that Burakovsky has put up fewer points in spite of playing with MacKinnon, and RFA trade and sign deals seem to be Treliving's forte) and a 1C/2C prospect. Not to mention that it would add to Calgary's own local Team Sweden. Top 6 would be Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm and Burakovsky-Newhook-Pelletier. For the Avs, this would give them an elite playmaker who would likely be even better than he is on the Flames given how much space Mackinnon's speed would create for him to work in. I can see Gaudreau easily putting up 120+ points on a line with MacKinnon and Rantanen, and boosting both of his linemates' goal totals significantly, to the point that the line would be virtually unstoppable for the next two years. I see this scenario as less likely because the Avs are more in a "win-anytime" mode, and Gaudreau may be less likely to re-sign there, but it may be hard to turn down the prospect of two years of being the Stanley Cup favourites.

Of course, Johnny's dream trade would be to the Flyers, probably for Morgan Frost. In this scenario, the Flyers would have to add. Maybe Konecky to balance the cap hit? From the Flyers' perspective, they would likely be highly confident that they could re-sign Gaudreau for a reasonable cap hit, and they are in "win-now" territory.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Of course, Johnny's dream trade would be to the Flyers, probably for Morgan Frost. In this scenario, the Flyers would have to add. Maybe Konecky to balance the cap hit? From the Flyers' perspective, they would likely be highly confident that they could re-sign Gaudreau for a reasonable cap hit, and they are in "win-now" territory.

Konecky probably has more trade value than Johnny, so I doubt he's added as a piece to "balance the cap hit".

If the Flames could do Johnny for Konecky, they would do so simply to get a better, longer term contract of a player who might resign.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Neither is likely interested in trading for Gaudreau in their current state, at least not in exchange for their picks. He's much more likely to be traded to a contender with a bit of cap room looking for an upgrade on 1LW, a team in "win now" mode that thinks he can put them over the top, even if it is at the expense of a promising prospect. So which contenders have a highly-rated centre prospect?

Probably the dream trade for the Flames would be with their 2020 2nd to Washington (which doesn't have its own 2nd this year) for Connor McMichael and Tom Wilson.

Why would the Flames do this? Well, for a middling team with no likely 1C or 2C in the pipeline, this would give them a potential top 6 centre, as well as a decent right-shot top 6 RW who's signed up until the Flames' next likely window to contend (around 2022-2023, at the prime of Tkachuk, Valimaki, Andersson, Pelletier, Hanifin, and Kylington's careers, with maybe Wolf or Parsons taking over in net). The top 9 would look something like Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm, Pelletier-McMichael-Wilson, and Dube-Backlund-Mangiapane.

Why would the Caps to this? Their window to win is now. Ovechkin is nearing the end of his contract, and his production is declining a bit. With his seeing-eye pinpoint passes, Gaudreau would be the best set-up man Ovy has ever had. With Gaudreau, a left-hand shot, playing RW and setting up Ovechkin's deadly right-hand shot on the LW, it wouldn't surprise me if Ovy got 60-70 goals and Gaudreau got 120 points. Sign Ovy for one more season, and you have two seasons as possibly the team with the best chance to win the Cup. Their top 6 would be Ovechkin-Kuznetsov-Gaudreau and Vrana-Backstrom-Oshie (scary!). They may give up more than they get back in trading McMichael at the beginning of his career, but if they win two Stanley Cups in the process, it will have been worth it (think back to the Niewendyk for Iginla trade). And they may have an above-average shot at re-signing Gaudreau.

With Wilson's cap hit being a bit less than Gaudreau's, the Flames could eat 25% of Gaudreau's salary to balance the cap. And how fun would it be to watch a Connor McMichael/Connor McDavid rivalry in the BOA?

One other intriguing possibility would be to again bundle Gaudreau with a 2nd to Colorado for Burakovsky and Alex Newhook. For the Flames, this would give them a top 6 LW to take 2nd line duties (RFA for UFA, but not at quite the same skill level, especially given that Burakovsky has put up fewer points in spite of playing with MacKinnon, and RFA trade and sign deals seem to be Treliving's forte) and a 1C/2C prospect. Not to mention that it would add to Calgary's own local Team Sweden. Top 6 would be Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm and Burakovsky-Newhook-Pelletier. For the Avs, this would give them an elite playmaker who would likely be even better than he is on the Flames given how much space Mackinnon's speed would create for him to work in. I can see Gaudreau easily putting up 120+ points on a line with MacKinnon and Rantanen, and boosting both of his linemates' goal totals significantly, to the point that the line would be virtually unstoppable for the next two years. I see this scenario as less likely because the Avs are more in a "win-anytime" mode, and Gaudreau may be less likely to re-sign there, but it may be hard to turn down the prospect of two years of being the Stanley Cup favourites.

Of course, Johnny's dream trade would be to the Flyers, probably for Morgan Frost. In this scenario, the Flyers would have to add. Maybe Konecky to balance the cap hit? From the Flyers' perspective, they would likely be highly confident that they could re-sign Gaudreau for a reasonable cap hit, and they are in "win-now" territory.

I disagree with most of this post.

Buffalo absolutely will have interest in probably every top player that is available this offseason. I read an article where their best reporter suggests at least 50% chance they trade that pick.

New Jersey would love to add an elite player to either Hughes or Hischier’s line. They have 3 1st round picks and a ton of cap space and want to move forward not continue a long rebuild.

Why are you adding a 2nd to Johnny for both the Colorado and Washington deals? Neither get me overly excited with Johnny by himself let alone the Flames trading away their 2nd for the 4th straight year.

Frost and Konecny is a dream trade that I can’t see the Flyers making. I do think in a one for one trade for Konecny the Flames would lose as it would be a classic sell low for the Flames and a sell high for the Flyers so I would like there to be a plus from Philly. I can see the Flyers shutting that down right away so that’s a reason I don’t see them as a good trade partner.


I am pretty firm in my belief that if Johnny is traded it will be for a futures based package that opens up cap space for Calgary to sign Hall while adding some key pieces that are 1-2 years away from making a significant impact on the club.