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Old 07-29-2020, 07:58 AM   #2141
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I never heard this.
I believe the Flames just balked at the revised price at the last second (after Vegas upped their offer).
Mark Stone said so himself on 31 thoughts. Friedman has also talked about this in advance and since that interview.
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Old 07-29-2020, 11:54 AM   #2142
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Flames are likely losing Hamonic and Brodie to free agency and then trading Hanifin for a forward?

Maybe it makes sense if Johnny is moved with a Dman coming back the other way? Otherwise they Flames can’t afford to move Hanifin
I would like to see the flames look to re-sign Brodie.

Giordano, Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington

Possible re-signing: Brodie, Forbert, Gustaffson

I just don't think Hanafin is that great, nor do I see him trending to a top 3 dman. Outside of being a decent skater, he's basically a pretty average defender, and sub-average offence providing dman.

Hence, I think his brand/draft pedigree might be more valuable in a trade than his on ice role with the flames.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:06 PM   #2143
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I keep changing my mind on Hanifin.

What it might come down to is that I like Kylington, and would like him to see an entire season, perhaps splitting time on the right side. That makes Hanifin expendable.

The player that I would re-sign out of all the UFAs, is Forbort. If you trade Hanifin for a big return, a Forbort/Kylington bottom pairing could be a really good dynamic.

That leaves Gio/Andersson, and a need for someone to play with Valimaki on the second pairing. Between returns for Johnny/Hanifin, someone solid should be an easy get.

Only thing that worries me about Brodie is term/dollars. He's going to get paid.

I'm ok with Mackie/Yelesin as the d-men of the future.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:07 PM   #2144
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I would like to see the flames look to re-sign Brodie.

Giordano, Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington

Possible re-signing: Brodie, Forbert, Gustaffson

I just don't think Hanafin is that great, nor do I see him trending to a top 3 dman. Outside of being a decent skater, he's basically a pretty average defender, and sub-average offence providing dman.

Hence, I think his brand/draft pedigree might be more valuable in a trade than his on ice role with the flames.
Trading Hanifin would be a mistake. He's only 23. Most defencemen, even the ones who make the NHL right out of the gate, take time to come into their prime. You've got the exceptions being the truly elite guys, but it's far too early to give up on Hanifin.

You look at guys like Chara, Burns, Gio, etc. Lots of guys playing today and throughout history that took time. I think Hanifin has a lot of ways his game can improve, but he's so young. It'd be foolish to move on from him now.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:14 PM   #2145
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If you could do Myers, Frost, 1st for Johnny (or an equivalent deal from another team), I would be fine trading Hanifin for a forward.
I agree that Hanifin doesn't look to be moving in the right direction, and the longer we wait, the less value remains from his draft pedigree. He's starting to remind me a bit of Ryan Murray.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:17 PM   #2146
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Most Dmen when they are 23 don't already have nearly 400 games of NHL experience under their belt. I know some believe Hanifin has a lot of ceiling left to reach, I'm not so sure. I think he's pretty much what he is at this point.

And don't get me wrong, what he is, is a solid top 4 Dman who can skate well and log minutes, and he has a good contract for what he brings. He's not small or weak either.

I would entertain trading him though if they can get a decent top 6 C in return, especially if they can re-sign Forbort to fill the gap while they bring along Valimaki, Kylington and Mackey on the left side.

If the Flames decide to retool this mess, that's another situation where they should try to deal Hanifin for a high end futures package if it can be had.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:55 PM   #2147
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I'm not sure what the better path for Valimaki's development is - middle pair or bottom pair? Is a Valimaki-Kylington bottom pair the right thing for either of them? With Hanifin on the roster, that seems like the most likely outcome.

Unless you treat the bottom 4 as equali(ish):
Gio-Andersson
Hanifin-Kylington
Valimaki- [cheap veteran]

But that doesn't seem great in several respects, including cap management beyond next year.

Winning in this league right now requires getting some really good value out of guys on ELCs - that means Valimaki holding his own on the middle pair for <$1M. I'd rather sign a UFA RD to pair with Vali and recoup assets from Hanifin than try to fit too many square parts into round holes.

Hanifin is simply expendable, and he likely holds more value to others than he does for us.


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Mark Stone said so himself on 31 thoughts. Friedman has also talked about this in advance and since that interview.
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Old 07-29-2020, 01:08 PM   #2148
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Most Dmen when they are 23 don't already have nearly 400 games of NHL experience under their belt.
I really disagree with this excuse for writing Hanifin off as "what he is." Or writing any young player off based solely on the number of NHL games they've played.

Yes, NHL games played has a positive impact on development. No argument. But it's a positive impact, not the ultimate decider.

Human beings continue to develop mentally and physically past their teens. Science suggests mens brains and decision-making abilities aren't fully developed until about 25 or so (and matures even later than that). In terms of physical peak, most men reach it in their late 20s (if consistent physical activity and fitness is in play, which for hockey players it would be).

The science aside, you can look at the players I mentioned. None of Chara, Burns, or Gio were "what they were" after 400 games played. Many more lesser defencemen are true of that, too. Gio couldn't even make the NHL full time at 23, which is also true of many NHL defencemen.

Hanifin has achieved an impressive amount given his age, and is far ahead of many players at the same stage. He's still young, and given that 400 games is not some magical decider of what will be either, there's still plenty of potential left.

Mass mentioned that Hanifin reminds him of Ryan Murray, an older player who made the NHL later, has less games played, and scored less goals in the last 3 years combined than Hanifin has in any single season, including this pandemic-shortened one (along with less points overall). A player who, conveniently, had his best season so far at 25 (his 6th NHL season). The comparison doesn't make a lot of sense, but even if you wanted to take it, it would suggest that Hanifin has room to grow.
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Old 07-29-2020, 01:18 PM   #2149
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Only way I would trade Hanifin is for a similar aged #2C on a decent contract
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Old 07-29-2020, 01:23 PM   #2150
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Why tinker with the D corps ? Brodie and Hammer need replacing and both can be done with what we have.

Id much rather invest in forward upgrades throughout the grouping.
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Old 07-29-2020, 01:36 PM   #2151
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
I really disagree with this excuse for writing Hanifin off as "what he is." Or writing any young player off based solely on the number of NHL games they've played.

Yes, NHL games played has a positive impact on development. No argument. But it's a positive impact, not the ultimate decider.

Human beings continue to develop mentally and physically past their teens. Science suggests mens brains and decision-making abilities aren't fully developed until about 25 or so (and matures even later than that). In terms of physical peak, most men reach it in their late 20s (if consistent physical activity and fitness is in play, which for hockey players it would be).

The science aside, you can look at the players I mentioned. None of Chara, Burns, or Gio were "what they were" after 400 games played. Many more lesser defencemen are true of that, too. Gio couldn't even make the NHL full time at 23, which is also true of many NHL defencemen.

Hanifin has achieved an impressive amount given his age, and is far ahead of many players at the same stage. He's still young, and given that 400 games is not some magical decider of what will be either, there's still plenty of potential left.

Mass mentioned that Hanifin reminds him of Ryan Murray, an older player who made the NHL later, has less games played, and scored less goals in the last 3 years combined than Hanifin has in any single season, including this pandemic-shortened one (along with less points overall). A player who, conveniently, had his best season so far at 25 (his 6th NHL season). The comparison doesn't make a lot of sense, but even if you wanted to take it, it would suggest that Hanifin has room to grow.
I probably wouldn’t give up on Hanifin yet pending on the deal presented. But Hanifin’s problem is his hockey sense. His inability to process the game at high speeds is his biggest downfall IMO. Personally, I’m not sure he’ll ever figure this part the game, he’s played nearly 400 NHL games, been playing the game even longer for what, 15-20 years? Just don’t see this aspect improving.

If Valimaki shows top 4 ability at any point next season; I’d feel comfortable moving Hanifin to fill a different need. Hanifin could fetch a bounty with his age and contract.
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Old 07-29-2020, 02:47 PM   #2152
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Johnny and Mony to Buffalo, they'd thrive there. Show up and play 82 games and have the summers off. Just like they've been doing every year so far.
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Old 07-29-2020, 02:50 PM   #2153
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Just a reminder that McDonagh and Trouba are the only two defensemen in the league who were first round picks and had their first 40+ point seasons at 24 or later. If I'm not mistaken.

And both regressed before they even reached the age of 30.

The "Hanafin is only 23" argument doesn't have much of a basis, at least in terms of potential offensive production. The fact that Hanafin has played a lot of games makes him less likely to explode offensive, not more likely. This is why Andersson has basically passed him. He's developing more from playing games.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to trade Hanafin. But I also doubt he'll suddenly become an elite player (especially offensively).
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:01 PM   #2154
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Absolutely everything should be on the table from a trade perspective with one huge target - improving the centre ice position. We can load up on all the defence we want, but it still doesn't make us a good defensive team unless we're strong down the middle - and we are not strong down the middle.

Coaching is also hugely important to team defence, and the goalie is a massive part as well - further making our continued over-spend on defenseman from an asset and salary perspective stupid.

1 - Improve the coaching of this team
2 - Improve the centre position
3 - Improve the goalie position

Everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The team is poorly structured, and if they actually want to win a cup at any point in the future - they have to actually look at what truly successful teams do and notice the strengths that they all share.

We aren't even a "somewhat" successful team, yet they keep doing the same stupid crap of over-spending on defence while underspending on centres, coaches, and goalies.

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Old 07-29-2020, 03:11 PM   #2155
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I'd love to see a big trade with the Lightning.

If they could convince Tyler Johnson to waive for Calgary, and package him with Cirelli and Cernak for a package of futures, it would plug several holes on this leaky boat.

Cirelli - young top 6 two way C, just 22 and slots between Monahan and Backlund perfectly
Johnson - right shot top 6 forward who can play W or C (he's buried on the depth chart there, he'd likely flourish with more ice time)
Cernak - young top 4 right shot Dman to slot behind Andersson


I'd be fine with a package that includes any number of the following pieces -> Pelletier, 2020 1st, Dube, Kylington, 2021 1st, Phillips, little Z, Petterson or pretty much any other picks or prospects.

Not all of those pieces, but any combo of them that Tampa might be interested in.

Obviously under normal circumstances they wouldn't move Cirelli or Cernak, but as mentioned a million times, they are in cap hell and both are RFA's that could very easily be signed to offer sheets.
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:16 PM   #2156
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Absolutely everything should be on the table from a trade perspective with one huge target - improving the centre ice position. We can load up on all the defence we want, but it still doesn't make us a good defensive team unless we're strong down the middle - and we are not strong down the middle.

Coaching is also hugely important to team defence, and the goalie is a massive part as well - further making our continued over-spend on defenseman from an asset and salary perspective stupid.

1 - Improve the coaching of this team
2 - Improve the centre position
3 - Improve the goalie position

Everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The team is poorly structured, and if they actually want to win a cup at any point in the future - they have to actually look at what truly successful teams do and notice the strengths that they all share.

We aren't even a "somewhat" successful team, yet they keep doing the same stupid crap of over-spending on defence while underspending on centres, coaches, and goalies.
I think the goalie drafting and development team needs revamped. No G seem to develop on the Flames. We have had so many promising goalies and every single one seems to flounder or flatline once they get into the Flames system. McDonald, Rittich to an extent, Parsons, Gillies it makes one wonder if they might actually turn into number 1 goalies in Nashville or someone else's system. Has to be something wrong when they have only had two decent goalies in 30 yrs and one of them was traded for.
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:21 PM   #2157
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I'd love to see a big trade with the Lightning.

If they could convince Tyler Johnson to waive for Calgary, and package him with Cirelli and Cernak for a package of futures, it would plug several holes on this leaky boat.

I imagine they would get more trading them separately.
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:28 PM   #2158
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I really disagree with this excuse for writing Hanifin off as "what he is." Or writing any young player off based solely on the number of NHL games they've played.

Yes, NHL games played has a positive impact on development. No argument. But it's a positive impact, not the ultimate decider.

Human beings continue to develop mentally and physically past their teens. Science suggests mens brains and decision-making abilities aren't fully developed until about 25 or so (and matures even later than that). In terms of physical peak, most men reach it in their late 20s (if consistent physical activity and fitness is in play, which for hockey players it would be).

The science aside, you can look at the players I mentioned. None of Chara, Burns, or Gio were "what they were" after 400 games played. Many more lesser defencemen are true of that, too. Gio couldn't even make the NHL full time at 23, which is also true of many NHL defencemen.

Hanifin has achieved an impressive amount given his age, and is far ahead of many players at the same stage. He's still young, and given that 400 games is not some magical decider of what will be either, there's still plenty of potential left.

Mass mentioned that Hanifin reminds him of Ryan Murray, an older player who made the NHL later, has less games played, and scored less goals in the last 3 years combined than Hanifin has in any single season, including this pandemic-shortened one (along with less points overall). A player who, conveniently, had his best season so far at 25 (his 6th NHL season). The comparison doesn't make a lot of sense, but even if you wanted to take it, it would suggest that Hanifin has room to grow.
Even if Hanifin has room to grow, does his value to the team outweigh his potential value on the trade market? I'm just not sure it does. If we lost Hanifin, we'd still have Valimaki and Kylington on the left side (and it's not as if Giordano can't play top 6 for the remainder of his contract...). I think we're a strong team on the left. On the right, however? Brodie's contract status is up in the air (I hope we retain him) and Andersson is solid, but then there's really nothing there for the future. We should trade Hanifin for a RHD... someone like Dougie Hamilton
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:33 PM   #2159
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Why tinker with the D corps ? Brodie and Hammer need replacing and both can be done with what we have.

Id much rather invest in forward upgrades throughout the grouping.
Gio-Andersson
Hanifin-???
Valimaki-???

Kylington can play LD or RD (the org seems to want him on the left so far, despite our total dearth of RD...) - not sure he makes sense to fill either of those ??? right now?

Mackey-Yelesin are the only others close to NHL potential right now.

It needs tinkering either way...moving Hanifin is how you achieve forward upgrades...expendable forwards can help you find a bit of depth on RD.

It's also far easier and cheaper to plug holes on defence via UFA than find top 6 forwards.
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:40 PM   #2160
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I think the goalie drafting and development team needs revamped. No G seem to develop on the Flames. We have had so many promising goalies and every single one seems to flounder or flatline once they get into the Flames system. McDonald, Rittich to an extent, Parsons, Gillies it makes one wonder if they might actually turn into number 1 goalies in Nashville or someone else's system. Has to be something wrong when they have only had two decent goalies in 30 yrs and one of them was traded for.
Hard to argue with this - although I think Rittich is still an absolute win. He's a great find as a back-up goalie, but that's what he is. He can be part of a tandem if his partner is notably better than him - and someone he can learn from. Finding Rittich as a free agent is a win, but as a whole - yeah, our lack of goaltending development is either a complete failure on the development or on the scouting of the position - or both, which I think is probably the case. We can't scout goalies at the pro-level (Hiller, Elliott, Smith) or at the minor level (MacDonald over Demko? That's just bad, and they justified it by saying MacDonald had more momentum going into the draft...whatever).

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I'd love to see a big trade with the Lightning.

If they could convince Tyler Johnson to waive for Calgary, and package him with Cirelli and Cernak for a package of futures, it would plug several holes on this leaky boat.

Cirelli - young top 6 two way C, just 22 and slots between Monahan and Backlund perfectly
Johnson - right shot top 6 forward who can play W or C (he's buried on the depth chart there, he'd likely flourish with more ice time)
Cernak - young top 4 right shot Dman to slot behind Andersson


I'd be fine with a package that includes any number of the following pieces -> Pelletier, 2020 1st, Dube, Kylington, 2021 1st, Phillips, little Z, Petterson or pretty much any other picks or prospects.

Not all of those pieces, but any combo of them that Tampa might be interested in.

Obviously under normal circumstances they wouldn't move Cirelli or Cernak, but as mentioned a million times, they are in cap hell and both are RFA's that could very easily be signed to offer sheets.
To me, none of the players you mention are good enough quality. I think when I mention improving the centre ice position it's about pushing Monahan out of the #1 slot. The only way you do that in my eyes is through the draft. If you go look at the top scoring centres, the vast majority of them are still with the teams that drafted them.

(...how the hell we didn't outbid St. Louis for ROR is beyond me. Probably because of the fatal misreading of the team's centre depth and the fact that we had too much cap tied up in a bloated defence group)
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