Practice notes July 20. Groups split into Main and taxi squads.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

We've had 4 fricken coaches since Bennett came to Calgary. Not all of them have a hate on and are interested in suppressing Bennett's talent. Maybe, just maybe, they are better talent evaluators than us and none of them saw what it took out of Bennett to deserve moving him up. The same set of coaches meanwhile did move up plenty of other notable young players during the same period.

It's not a grand conspiracy, it's just the reality. Bennett is never going to be a top 6 player (for a playoff bound squad) anywhere in this league.

It comical that we are all hyped over Mangiapane and his chances to become a top 6 forward. Yet Bennett, who is younger, has no chance.

I’m sure everyone in Columbus said the same thing about William Karlsson.

[dammage79]

Ah yes, ye old push back. Abandon all hope those who enter here.

All the Bennett detractors, I hate you. I hate you because you take the fun out of hoping for the best for the players on the team we all cheer for. But carry on with how right you are and carry on looking down on people trying to find any positive to cheer on this franchise.

Hey, I get it, I did the exact same thing to Ferland lovers. Tit for tat I guess.

Still hate you though.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

It comical that we are all hyped over Mangiapane and his chances to become a top 6 forward. Yet Bennett, who is younger, has no chance.

I’m sure everyone in Columbus said the same thing about William Karlsson.

Mangiapane had a much steeper hill to climb, and yet he is now a productive member of our top-6.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Ah yes, ye old push back. Abandon all hope those who enter here.

All the Bennett detractors, I hate you. I hate you because you take the fun out of hoping for the best for the players on the team we all cheer for. But carry on with how right you are and carry on looking down on people trying to find any positive to cheer on this franchise.

Hey, I get it, I did the exact same thing to Ferland lovers. Tit for tat I guess.

Still hate you though.

I cheer for Sam. I would love him to become a bigger factor and better player. I am not someone who views him as a fringe NHLer. I think he's a good bottom 6 player.
What I get frustrated with, as with so many things, is the lack of accountability put on the players. Sam is the author of his fate. Lack of production, inconsistency, dumb penalties and poor one-ice decisions are the consistent reasons why he isn't given a bigger opportunity.

It's on him.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

It makes no sense that the Flames are actively trying to devalue its own asset. Bennett has had chances and has failed to take the opportunity.

For the fans that rag on Bennett (myself included), it isn't as if we don't hope to see the jump. That would be huge for the Flames if they have another top 6 forward (Centre, in particular). I truly hope that happens. I just don't expect it at this stage.

[SeanCharles]

All we want is for the team to keep Bennett in the 3C spot, where he looks to be succeeding, instead of putting the 33yo vet, who we know can help establish a solid 4th line, back in there and push Bennett down.

Saying this brings all the negative Nancy’s out.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Mangiapane had a much steeper hill to climb, and yet he is now a productive member of our top-6.

Not really.

Mangiapane never had to centre Troy Brouwer.

Mangiapane didn't get the top-six, line-murdering James Neal.

Andrew Mangiapane came in, got to play with Derek Ryan - and grew. Derek Ryan is the perfect type of player to pair with young developing players. Troy Brouwer? Nope. James Neal? Hell no.

Sam Bennett came in, got to play on the wing with Backlund and Frolik which led to a strong rookie campaign - and then an absolutely horrid head coach decided he was ready to transition to centre and stapled the worst player on the roster to his line - a player who was so bad that he was kicked off of every other line that he was on, and couldn't even be carried by Monahan and Gaudreau. Then the following year, he got to play with the same crappy players and a bit of Mark Jankowski.

Also, Andrew Mangiapane was properly developed in the AHL while the Flames rushed Sam Bennett into the line-up. Sam Bennett has been tossed up and down the line-up and asked to play with players who were on their way out of the league or should have been out of the league already.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

All we want is for the team to keep Bennett in the 3C spot, where he looks to be succeeding, instead of putting the 33yo vet, who we know can help establish a solid 4th line, back in there and push Bennett down.

Saying this brings all the negative Nancy’s out.

I want the team to win. I could care less who the bottom 6 players are that help do that.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Not really.

Mangiapane never had to centre Troy Brouwer.

Mangiapane didn't get the top-six, line-murdering James Neal.

Andrew Mangiapane came in, got to play with Derek Ryan - and grew. Derek Ryan is the perfect type of player to pair with young developing players. Troy Brouwer? Nope. James Neal? Hell no.

Sam Bennett came in, got to play on the wing with Backlund and Frolik which led to a strong rookie campaign - and then an absolutely horrid head coach decided he was ready to transition to centre and stapled the worst player on the roster to his line - a player who was so bad that he was kicked off of every other line that he was on, and couldn't even be carried by Monahan and Gaudreau. Then the following year, he got to play with the same crappy players and a bit of Mark Jankowski.

Also, Andrew Mangiapane was properly developed in the AHL while the Flames rushed Sam Bennett into the line-up. Sam Bennett has been tossed up and down the line-up and asked to play with players who were on their way out of the league or should have been out of the league already.

Talkin out your ass- here are Mangi's linemate combos from 18-19:

2 JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES
MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK
JANKOWSKI,MARK - LOMBERG,RYAN - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
3 HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - FROLIK,MICHAEL - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES
4 HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW

Mangiapane lugged around Janko, Neal, Hathaway, and czarnik pretty consistently, and yet was able to build off of that glowing support cast to move up the lineup.
Bennett could not perform in the EXACT same situation.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I cheer for Sam. I would love him to become a bigger factor and better player. I am not someone who views him as a fringe NHLer. I think he's a good bottom 6 player.
What I get frustrated with, as with so many things, is the lack of accountability put on the players. Sam is the author of his fate. Lack of production, inconsistency, dumb penalties and poor one-ice decisions are the consistent reasons why he isn't given a bigger opportunity.

It's on him.

Partly yes, its on him. Some say its the penalties some say its other things. But aside from Hartley, which coach gave him any length of rope to work with? Answer none. Its been massively frustrating because they expect him to be versatile while shoe horning other players who don't fit around him. And when we do see a glimmer of hope I.e. his stint with Dube, he is immediately shuffled off in favor of a Journeyman. Yes, I fully understand the meritocracy and Ryan playing well prior to the injury, but they've continuously packed too many obstacles in his way. The problem for me is, he doesn't have a runway to take off. He just doesn't. Darren Haynes sees it too. Was just chatting on twitter with about it the other day.

I get it, he hasn't done much, but he also hasn't been given much either.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Not really.

Mangiapane never had to centre Troy Brouwer.

Mangiapane didn't get the top-six, line-murdering James Neal.

Andrew Mangiapane came in, got to play with Derek Ryan - and grew. Derek Ryan is the perfect type of player to pair with young developing players. Troy Brouwer? Nope. James Neal? Hell no.

Mangiapane did not get to play with Ryan to start his career.

Sam Bennett came in, got to play on the wing with Backlund and Frolik which led to a strong rookie campaign - and then an absolutely horrid head coach decided he was ready to transition to centre and stapled the worst player on the roster to his line - a player who was so bad that he was kicked off of every other line that he was on, and couldn't even be carried by Monahan and Gaudreau. Then the following year, he got to play with the same crappy players and a bit of Mark Jankowski.

Didn't Bennett get an extended turn with Gaudreau when Monahan was shut down in the 2018 season?

[Wastedyouth]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Venn Diagram of people yearning for more Sam Bennett and the people yearning for Gaudreau to be traded, to be a perfect circle.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Talkin out your ass- here are Mangi's linemate combos from 18-19:

2 JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES
MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK
JANKOWSKI,MARK - LOMBERG,RYAN - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
3 HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - FROLIK,MICHAEL - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES
4 HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW

Mangiapane lugged around Janko, Neal, Hathaway, and czarnik pretty consistently, and yet was able to build off of that glowing support cast to move up the lineup.
Bennett could not perform in the EXACT same situation.

Look at the stats you posted a bit closer.

In quarter 2, he played 7 games - which is where he played with a random assortment of line mates.

In quarter 3, he played 17 games - it was with Hath and Ryan.

In quarter 4, he played 20 games - it was with Hath and Ryan.

We know he played with Hath and Ryan almost exclusively in that run towards the end of the season (and that was a damn good line). He had no success in the 2nd quarter (8 shots in 7 games, 0 points), and he wasn't set up for success. It was once he was introduced to Ryan that he took off. Also, he was developed at the AHL level for the pro game - 20 year old Sam Bennett was buried at centre with Troy Brouwer/Alex Chiasson/Kris Versteeg.

Also, 18/19 Janko wasn't 19/20 Janko.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I want the team to win. I could care less who the bottom 6 players are that help do that.

Part of winning is development of your assets.

Bennett looks good there. The 33yo guy who’s spot it was can still contribute on the 4th line and will probably make it much better which will help with winning..

Why not leave it as is?

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane
Lucic-Bennett-Dube
Rinaldo-Ryan-Reider

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Venn Diagram of people yearning for more Sam Bennett and the people yearning for Gaudreau to be traded, to be a perfect circle.

What makes you think so?

I for one have long been a proponent of moving Gaudreau this summer in an effort to maximize his value. I am also not convinced that Bennett is a top-six player, and I most definitely do not believe in the conspiracy theories regarding his poor development.

It's ridiculous when posters draw X=Y correlations like this on this site.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Mangiapane did not get to play with Ryan to start his career.


Didn't Bennett get an extended turn with Gaudreau when Monahan was shut down in the 2018 season?

Spencer Foo got more of a "turn" with Gaudreau than Bennett during that span. And Gaudreau was hardly playing well down the stretch of that season after health the issues with his dad.

And what? Mangiapane - Ryan - Hathaway was essentially a staple, and this year Lucic - Ryan - Mangiapane.

Regardless, comparing Mangiapane and Bennett is apples and oranges. Eatbread is a goal scoring sniper winger. Bennett is more of a two-way centre. Expecting the same results from such different players is foolish. I say this as someone who wanted Eatbread in the top six from day one. But you're essentially comparing a camalleri type to a conroy type. They're markedly different players. Does craig conroy score 40 goals on the wing? Of course not. But he still brings a unique skillset that helps the team and helps his high quality linemates. I believe that is something Bennett could do for either Tkachuk or Gaudreau.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Part of winning is development of your assets.

Bennett looks good there. The 33yo guy who’s spot it was can still contribute on the 4th line and will probably make it much better which will help with winning..

Why not leave it as is?

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane
Lucic-Bennett-Dube
Rinaldo-Ryan-Reider

Bennett has looked good there in two intra-squad scrimmages, and he looked alright in two games against marginal teams while Ryan was sidelined. And I don't think Ryan's age has anything at all to do with this decision.

The reason to continue to play Ryan on the third line is because the coaches know it works. They seem to be open to trying things out with Bennett there (so far), but I don't think a couple of intrasquad games are proof of anything significant.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What makes you think so?

I for one have long been a proponent of moving Gaudreau this summer in an effort to maximize his value. I am also not convinced that Bennett is a top-six player, and I most definitely do not believe in the conspiracy theories regarding his poor development.

It's ridiculous when posters draw X=Y correlations like this on this site.

Also I don't think very many people are arguing Sam Bennett is a top six forward. I'm not sitting here thinking he should be displacing Mangiapane or anyone else in the top six.

To me, there seems to be a group of people who think Bennett fans are sitting back saying he's a superstar and free of criticism - but I think I'm one of the bigger Bennett fans on here, and that's not the stance I'm taking. Dude's a solid bottom 6 forward who steps up in playoff time - that's a useful player to have.

I do view Bennett's career as an absolute failure of player development though. I haven't been able to find a solid comparison for another promising young player being asked to do what Bennett has been asked to do here. I find other teams provide a much more development-focused strategy where they play young promising players with players notably better than the player in question.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Bennett has looked good there in two intra-squad scrimmages, and he looked alright in two games against marginal teams while Ryan was sidelined. And I don't think Ryan's age has anything at all to do with this decision.

The reason to continue to play Ryan on the third line is because the coaches know it works. They seem to be open to trying things out with Bennett there (so far), but I don't think a couple of intrasquad games are proof of anything significant.

Works to what degree though? Just enough to barely have them qualify for the playoffs? Is that the target? Continued irrelevancy and mediocrity? I see Ryan on the 4th as an opportunity for him to stabilize lesser players, while playing Bennett with Lucic and Dube provides some solid jump and has the make-up of a great playoff line - it's also investment in Bennett during crunch time. Or should we put him on the 4th line, have him be effective, and then only promote him when the series is already lost?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Venn Diagram of people yearning for more Sam Bennett and the people yearning for Gaudreau to be traded, to be a perfect circle.

Not me.
I'm a trade Johnny and non Sam booster.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Spwncer Foo got more of a "turn" with Gaudreau than Bennett during that span. And Gaudreau was hardly playing well down the stretch of that season after health the issues with his dad.

Spencer Foo played centre? There are an awful lot of excuses for Bennett's lack of production.

I am asking in part because I am unsure, but I seem to recall that Bennett was moved to the top line to replace Monahan, that there was a buzz of anticipation surrounding this opportunity, and that he didn't play particularly well. Can someone provide numbers to clarify?