Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #3

[FireGilbert]

Thinking of Coates again, where does replacing him with Button rank on the list of stupidest moves in Flames history? Has to be top 5 or 10. Looking back it seems like the firing was more to show a desperate fan base that something was happening than a well thought out hockey move.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again it’s not just the chaos of his final year. The poor drafting was a problem for his entire tenure.

Ok sure, I can grant you that. Was it really any worse than these other guys, especially considering the organization he inherited? I'm not sure, but willing to concede the point for the sake of argument.

Drafting, trades, roster management, cap management, contract negotiations, hiring coaches,free agent signings are all important. And they are all done in support of a singular objective. Building a winning product at the NHL level. Two GM's in the history of the franchise have been able to accomplish this. A third has one hell of a nice regular season to his credit.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

The 2nd half was bad? I’d say the last full year.

Well it was a pretty poor year so felt like longer. Things were starting to fall apart for Sutter earlier though from the lack of prospects and failure to find as coach even close to as good as he was. Even that great 2009 team was looking a little too old and when the inevitable injuries hit there was no depth to replace it resulting in the exit to a much younger Hawks.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Sutter got people to want to play here again instead of getting other team's castaways. Part of that was the cap, part of it was returning professionalism to the organization.

Part of that was the best player in the world at the time playing for us as well...

[Strange Brew]

If anyone is interested, of the 24 players voted by CP to represent the all time Calgary Flames team, they were acquired by the following GM's:

Fletcher: 15
Sutter: 4
Feaster: 2
Coates: 2
Treliving: 1

In terms of tenure, these same GM's:

Fletcher: 20 years
Sutter: 7.5 years (includes one lost season)
Treliving: 6+ years
Coates; 4.5 years
Feaster: 3 years

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If anyone is interested, of the 24 players voted by CP to represent the all time Calgary Flames team, they were acquired by the following GM's:

Fletcher: 15
Sutter: 4
Feaster: 2
Coates: 2
Treliving: 1

In terms of tenure, these same GM's:

Fletcher: 20 years
Sutter: 7.5 years (includes one lost season)
Treliving: 6+ years
Coates; 4.5 years
Feaster: 3 years

Coates could have more than 2, if Button didn't let St.Louis and Giguere go for nothing.

[FireGilbert]

That all time acquisition list does need a bit of context including as stated above Coates acquiring a future HoFer and Conn Smythe winner only for them to be lost. Also it makes Treliving look bad when you can’t really judge his contributions to the all time team until well after he leaves. The others are set while he has no where to go but up.

Looking at Sutter, other than the brilliant Kipper move and somehow landing Gio the others on the all time team are the 4th LW and 7D. Definitely room for one of Treliving’s acquisitions to bump a Sutter acquisition off the team in a decade.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

That all time acquisition list does need a bit of context including as stated above Coates acquiring a future HoFer and Conn Smythe winner only for them to be lost. Also it makes Treliving look bad when you can’t really judge his contributions to the all time team until well after he leaves. The others are set while he has no where to go but up.

Looking at Sutter, other than the brilliant Kipper move and somehow landing Gio the others on the all time team are the 4th LW and 7D. Definitely room for one of Treliving’s acquisitions to bump a Sutter acquisition off the team in a decade.

I love how people are launching these cannonballs across the bow and while saying context is needed, going straight ahead and neglecting some good context

Here. Also looking at Sutter, what was his hit rate on top 20 draft picks? 100%

Because he nailed the 9th overall with Phaneuf, and they due to his successful on ice team (somehow not valued much in this poll), he never got a first rounder below 20 after that

Ensuring to take off any homer glasses, do you see any Tre acquisitions right now that didn’t make the list that you think may?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Here. Also looking at Sutter, what was his hit rate on top 20 draft picks? 100%

Because he nailed the 9th overall with Phaneuf, and they due to his successful on ice team (somehow not valued much in this poll), he never got a first rounder below 20 after that

That's not really true. 2006 was the only year the Flames' first round pick was after 20th overall because of the team's performance. 2005 was also outside the top-20, but that was because of bad lottery luck.

In 2004, 2007, 2008, and 2009, Sutter traded the team's first round pick and moved down to later in the round, and in 2010, he traded it away entirely. In all of those years, the Flames' original draft pick was in the top 20.


In 2004, the Flames' pick was 19th overall (this was before the Conference Champions were given the final 2 picks in the draft). Sutter traded down to 24th overall. The Rangers took Korpikoski with the Flames pick. Zajac, Wolski, and Meszaros were taken before the Flames actually picked. Oddly, the final 4 players chosen in the first round that year were big-bodied Alberta defencemen (3 from Calgary and 1 from Edmonton, including Mike Green) -- Sutter took a big western Canadian winger who ended up playing 2 NHL games.

In 2007, he traded the 18th overall pick for the 24th overall pick. Although Backlund was one of Sutter's best picks, Pacioretty was taken 2 spots earlier, and Perron went 2 spots later.

In 2008, he moved the 17th overall pick as part of the Cammalleri trade from LA, and acquired the 25th overall pick as part of the Tanguay trade to Montreal. Cammalleri was a very good player for the Flames, but there were some good players taken in the draft. Anaheim ended up taking Gardiner with the Flames' pick. Eberle was chosen 3 picks before the Flames took Nemisz, and Ennis and Carlson were the two picks immediately after Nemisz.

In 2009, the Flames had the choice of keeping their pick or letting Phoenix have it as part of the Jokinen trade. Even though it was 20th overall, Sutter chose to keep it and then traded down 3 spots to 23, where he picked some kid named Tom. Johansson and Palmieri were 2 of the next 3 picks after Erixon (and O'Reilly went 10 picks after Erixon).

In 2010, the Flames pick was 13th overall, but it went to Phoenix in completion of the Jokinen trade (who wasn't even on the team anymore -- but soon would be). The Coyotes picked Gormley with the Flames' pick and he didn't do much in the NHL, but the 3 picks after that were Schwartz, Forbort, and Tarasenko.



In each of the cases where Sutter traded down in the first round to pick up another later pick, the later pick was a bust and the Flames ultimately gained nothing from moving down. Even at the time, keeping the 20th overall pick in 2009 and letting Phoenix have the 2010 pick seemed like a mistake ... and that was before all the Erixon drama.


This is where the Flames first round pick landed based on the team's performance during the Sutter years:

• 2003 - 9th
• 2004 - 19th
• 2005 - 26th Lottery
• 2006 - 26th
• 2007 - 18th
• 2008 - 17th
• 2009 - 20th
• 2010 - 13th
• 2011 - 13th (by points percentage, the Flames were 6th-last when Darryl was asked to stop working for the team)

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Coates could have more than 2, if Button didn't let St.Louis and Giguere go for nothing.

Possibly another one in Marc Savard. Button really was a buffoon.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Possibly another one in Marc Savard. Button really was a buffoon.

St.Louis - Savard - Iginla

What a line that could have been...

[Strange Brew]

More data.

Of the all time Flames team voted by CP, here are the number of players inherited by each GM.

Risebrough: 8
Feaster: 6
Burke and Treliving: 4
Coates: 3
Sutter and Button: 2
Fletcher: zero

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

That all time acquisition list does need a bit of context including as stated above Coates acquiring a future HoFer and Conn Smythe winner only for them to be lost. Also it makes Treliving look bad when you can’t really judge his contributions to the all time team until well after he leaves. The others are set while he has no where to go but up.

Looking at Sutter, other than the brilliant Kipper move and somehow landing Gio the others on the all time team are the 4th LW and 7D. Definitely room for one of Treliving’s acquisitions to bump a Sutter acquisition off the team in a decade.

It's just data so add whatever context needed to paint your preferred picture. Maybe Lindholm and Rasmus make the all time team. And of course Taylor Hall.

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I love how people are launching these cannonballs across the bow and while saying context is needed, going straight ahead and neglecting some good context

Some people have trouble with nuance.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

More data.

Of the all time Flames team voted by CP, here are the number of players inherited by each GM.

Risebrough: 8
Feaster: 6
Burke and Treliving: 4
Coates: 3
Sutter and Button: 2
Fletcher: zero

Puts things in perspective. Sutter's claim to 2 is becoming stronger. People say Sutter left the team worse than he inherited but it looks like he tripled the amount of impact players left over for the next guy. Sure they were older but value could've been received in 2010 instead of waiting until the assets withered by 2013. Not exactly Sutter's fault.

The draft and his 48 crazy hours seem to be the two main detractors for Sutter while BT gets pretty close to a free pass for accelerating the rebuild and the hamonic fiasco. After 6 years of rebuilding we are left with 6 or 7 guys who might make the all time team, after starting with 4. So he added Tkachuk and Lindholm I guess, but Tkachuk was pretty lucky, just as lucky as Kipper. First you have to suck then you have to have Edmonton and Vancouver whiff right ahead of you. Kudos on Lindholm, but we paid a price for sure.

People forget that there was no farm team and the scouts were a mess in 2003. It was always going to take years to fix the draft problem. Looks like it was rounding into form by the time Feaster and Tre came along to reap the benefits. Personally I think it was damn impressive that Sutter could form a competitive team while essentially bombing 5 drafts in a row. He turned picks into guys like Bourque, Cammalleri, Bouwmeester. He knew the drafting was no good so he spent the picks on NHL players. Sutter added assets overall which was his job. Not his fault that ownership hired a joke yes man to try to win on the fumes of an aging core instead of trading guys while they had value starting in 2010.

[Super-Rye]

I voted Coates here. He was in tough as the team was small market and he did a good job of bringing in some very skilled young players. Had some of these young players not been shipped out under Buttons tenure it's likely the team would have been a lot better a lot faster.

Debated Sutter here because of the on ice success he had but the piss poor drafting and the Dion Phaneuf trade just ruins it for me. Sutter's up next though.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Again it's comments like this that I object to
"BT gets pretty close to a free pass for accelerating the rebuild and the hamonic fiasco"

People have specifically outlined those as negatives on his resume (along with bad UFAs) so it's not like people are giving him a free pass, they just see the positive outweighing the negatives.

And there is no doubt that the organization made a massive mistake in not starting to move out the former core (Iginla, Regehr, Kipper) until it was too late to extract value. I think that was likely an ownership mandate largely based on a desire to win a cup with #12.

But yeah it hurt us big time long-term.

But the lack of scouts and farm team to me are largely an excuse for bad drafting. I'm not one to adhere to any draft rankings but he would have done a lot better if he had taken the Kevin Lowe approach and drafted off the THN draft magazine. Guys like Pelech and Chucko were surprise selections where they were picked.

My belief is that Sutter put constraints around the scouting team in terms of the type of player he wanted in the first round - with too much emphasis on size and not nearly enough on skill.

The draft for me is all about upside and skill.

[Bingo]

Man there's a lot anger in this discussion.

I'm with Jiri, not sure why people have to denigrate, ignore, or generalize any opinions that are counter to their own.

Good to see some hockey passion again though after four months of chaos.

Now the poll ... part of me says run off, but then there aren't a lot of votes in the other camps to change the overall vote. Thoughts?

[Roof-Daddy]

Sutter and Coates have nearly 95% of the votes and there is 5% difference between the two, I say it's been decided, no need for a run off IMO.

[Canada 02]

Spoiler!