Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #1

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This has been brought up before, and it bears repeating...


The reason the Flames's depth at centre is shallower than we all would have liked cannot be pinned on the fact that O'Reilly was traded to St Louis and not to Calgary. If this is your measure of failure, then I would think that D. Sutter deserves even more of your ire for balking at the idea of trading Regehr for Joe Thornton.

We needed a 1C out of our rebuild. BT failed at that. Not much else needs to be said. It's a results oriented business and we lack the most crucial peice a team can have. Sometimes life's not fair. O'Reilly was out there. So was Schenn. Miss on Bennett, miss on the trades, ufa not an option. It's not my job to figure out why BT failed at this, but I can point it out. It was frustrating to see Sutter pass on Thornton too. And Pronger. Or lose out. Whatever

[CSharp]

Cliff Fletcher is truly the Wizard for the Flames.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The O'Reilly trade is a weird one to evaluate in retrospect. Of course, it looks like a genius move for St. Louis from here, but through most of the season the deal looked like a serious bust as the Blues scraped the bottom of the Standings for the first several months. A coaching change and a new goaltender completely turned their fortunes around in a way that is difficult to explain because of how much these two changes impacted the entire roster.

It's also why I think it would be a mistake to write off the current Flames roster after a twelve-month period of disappointment which was also tied to a coaching problem.

That trade looked a win for STL from the minute it happened IMO. And even when the team was struggling in the first half they were still being led in scoring by a rejuvenated ROR who was putting up numbers like he never had before. IIRC he was over a point per game for quite a while.

But yes you''re right, the team didn't see success until they shored up the goaltending and changed coaches.

I also agree that it might be too early to give up on the Flames core, but they need to add some pieces for sure, and they also need to pray Gio's level of play doesn't drop off a cliff.

St. Louis in back to back off seasons added Schenn and ROR. Two genius moves that revamped their center core to cup caliber. I think if the Flames could add one really good C it would make a world of difference. If Treliving had added Schenn and ROR those two years instead of Hamonic and Neal, where would they be now?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

He played in the top 4. Poorly. He wasn't a true top 4 dman. He's a more physical version of Kris Russell. The team was at a crucial stage in the rebuild. We needed those picks, we could've just signed a ufa like Hamhuis or Campbell and it would've made no difference. Except we would've added a Dobson level guy in my scenario.

Trades like Lydman, Stralman, Reinhart, Gigure, Regehr are examples of bad trades but didn't tip the apple cart. Lydman was gone with Phaneuf coming in. More value was needed probably but that was after the lockout and the flooded ufa market. Look what Pronger fetched. Reinhart did not hurt the team, it was a bad trade though for sure. Stralman would've been a 6D in Calgary. Giguere was nothing at the time, probably wouldn't have developed in Calgary knowing this franchise. Mullen was thought to be over the hill. The team received a couple picks that they wasted, it was a bad deal but the team was still solidly top 3/5 in the league after. Agree on Savard, Gilmour, Phaneuf, I feel Hamonic is just a notch below. It was assets for nothing, just like those deals. Bouwmeester was pretty bad too, maybe it needs to be there but it worked out to a 1st, a 2nd that were wasted and Cundari. How much more do you expect? Regehr was a cap dump. He looked close to done but had a couple acceptable years left. Was pretty meh a year or two later.

A lot of trades you listed describe why the team has been so middling but they weren't deathblows like Gilmour, Phaneuf, Savard, Hamonic were. Savard might be the worst of the bunch really.

You seem to be rather arbitrarily deciding which trades hurt the team and which didn't.
In addition to the Flames dumping a talented player (Reinhart) for nothing, if the Nucks had upset the Flames in the Stanley Cup year, he was one of the main reasons why.
Other deals damaged the asset base as value commodities were lost for nothing.
That's the stuff that has created the asset deficit I've been discussing.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You seem to be rather arbitrarily deciding which trades hurt the team and which didn't.

In addition to the Flames dumping a talented player (Reinhart) for nothing, if the Nucks had upset the Flames in the Stanley Cup year, he was one of the main reasons why.

Other deals damaged the asset base as value commodities were lost for nothing.

That's the stuff that has created the asset deficit I've been discussing.

But the asset deficit effectively reached rock bottom in 2013. BT was tasked with rebuilding it from almost nothing. It doesn't matter to BT that Stralman was given away or that Regehr was packaged with a 2nd for depth players. By 2013 we were almost an expansion team, not far off 1996 except that team still had Fleury and Roberts. It also had a young Stillman and Iginla in the system. That was the first rock bottom for the team. 2013 was the second. Coates survived and BT went guns a blazing. Two different approaches for two vastly different times. Both probably influenced by ownership but the other GMs were probably meddled with as well.

It should've been full out pick accumulation mode from 2014-2016. Not sure it was the owners or BT or both but those old trades don't matter when evaluating BT.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I guess that's where we will have to agree to disagree. The move of the previous GMs in my mind absolutely the future GM.
And I don't think BT has authority to go totally scored earth. I do think he thought the team was advancing faster than projected, and tried to accelerate the re-build. That is on him.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I guess that's where we will have to agree to disagree. The move of the previous GMs in my mind absolutely the future GM.
And I don't think BT has authority to go totally scored earth. I do think he thought the team was advancing faster than projected, and tried to accelerate the re-build. That is on him.

It already was scorched earth pretty much by 2013, well before BT was hired. He pretty much got to build from scratch. Most GMs would dream of such an opportunity. However it's been 6 years now, almost 7. He's had ample time. I was pretty much a full on BT supporter until the Hamonic trade.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It already was scorched earth pretty much by 2013, well before BT was hired. He pretty much got to build from scratch. Most GMs would dream of such an opportunity. However it's been 6 years now, almost 7. He's had ample time. I was pretty much a full on BT supporter until the Hamonic trade.

Brad Treliving was hired by the Calgary Flames on 28 April, 2014. Six years ago. Whether or not he has had ample time is an open discussion.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Brad Treliving was hired by the Calgary Flames on 28 April, 2014. Six years ago. Whether or not he has had "ample time" is an open discussion.

Yeah I stand corrected on the timeline. It's like 6.2 years. Got ahead of myself. Still how much time does he need and do you really see a 1C on the horizon? A 1G? That's pretty much what we need. Otherwise the years will just march on with little to no success. Im done with him, I give it 1-2 years before he's fired.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Yeah I stand corrected on the timeline. It's like 6.2 years. Got ahead of myself. Still how much time does he need and do you really see a 1C on the horizon? A 1G? That's pretty much what we need. Otherwise the years will just march on with little to no success. Im done with him, I give it 1-2 years before he's fired.

Yeah, these are problems. And yeah, it can take a VERY long time.

I like the fact that Treliving shows a clear awareness of problems with his team, and he is aggressive in correcting those problems. I like that he has prioritised player attributes at the Draft which have resulted in some pretty impressive returns, and in some promising prospects for the future. I like that Treliving is quick to recognise and correct his own mistakes, instead of stubbornly insisting on hammering square-pegs into round holes.

Because of these attributes I am more confident that the current problems—a shortage of high-end skill at centre and in goal; the present need to accumulate draft picks—are more likely to be rectified by Treliving than by his replacement.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by VilleN

He's not a RW. He's a C who can play RW. I'm not arguing that we are cup contenders - we clearly aren't. Our C depth is better now than it was in 09... that is the argument.

I agree with you on the basis of Lindholm being very good at C.But until we actually dress Monahan, Lindholm, Backlund and Ryan at C at the same time. It’s pretty hard to make the claim this is our C depth.

It’s been for the most part:

Monahan
Backlund
Ryan
Jankowski

Temporarily it was :
Monahan
Lindholm
Ryan
Jankowski
When Lindholm Center’d line 2, Backlund was moved to the wing.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It already was scorched earth pretty much by 2013, well before BT was hired. He pretty much got to build from scratch. Most GMs would dream of such an opportunity. However it's been 6 years now, almost 7. He's had ample time. I was pretty much a full on BT supporter until the Hamonic trade.

BT inherited a team that had Brodie, Backlund, Giordano, Glencross, Hudler, and Kris Russel as NHL players. Not good, but three of them were still tradable when their deals expired, and the other three still play significant roles on the team.

They had just drafted Monahan and Gaudreau was in the fold having been signed by Burke and Conroy. Plus the team had cap space and only Wideman with a bad contract with term left. He had a #4 overall pick plus two second round picks in the 2014 draft and a full slate of picks to work with in coming drafts. He also had low expectations to start with too. I would argue that he came into a better situation than most other Flames GM's did.

[flamesgod]

Has anybody brought up the fact Gio, who may not have been drafted by Surter, was brought in and developed by Sutter? (Undrafted). That’s as close to drafting without actually drafting.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It should've been full out pick accumulation mode from 2014-2016.

For Treliving, it was.

None of the traded picks in 2014 were Treliving's doing. In 2014, the Flames used their own 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th picks, plus Colorado's 2nd, acquired for Berra (a Burke trade) and Anaheim's 6th for Jackman (a Feaster trade). They traded away their 4th (Colborne), 5th (Russell), and 6th (Lane MacDermid -- who?) picks that year --- they were all traded away by Feaster.

In the 2015 draft, Feaster had traded the 4th rounder for Galiardi. The Flames' 3rd was bundled with Washington's third (from the Glencross trade) to move up into the second round, for the Kylington pick. Washington's second rounder (also from the Glencross trade) was bundled with the Flames' own 1st and 2nd for Hamilton. Vancouver's second was acquired for Baertschi and used to pick Andersson. The Flames also used their own 5th, 6th, and 7th picks in the 2015 draft.

In 2016, the only pick the Flames traded away was their own 2nd for Elliott. They also acquired Florida's second for Hudler and Dallas' second for Russell (so close to being a first), as well as Minnesota's 6th for Jones.



So, in those 3 drafts, Treliving moved out 5 roster players for 4 second round picks, a third round pick, and a sixth round pick. He traded away a second round pick for a starting goalie, and a first and two seconds for a young top-pairing defenceman (who was later bundled to acquire a top-line forward and a young defenceman who had been drafted in 2015 10 spots higher than the best pick the Flames traded away in 2015).

I'm sure a few people grumbled about the Elliott trade, but no one was complaining about getting Dougie for nothing but draft picks.

[TheScorpion]

Wait was there some Daymond Langkow slander in here?

Langkow was awesome... he's still the best centre I've ever watched on this team. All due respect to Monahan and Backlund and Lindholm (he's mostly a RW anyway)... but they have a ways to go in terms of being as consistently impactful as #22 was at his peak.

[Robbob]

I think Treliving was also a little unlucky in that first year as he wasn't able to take advantage of cap space like some teams have done since. There were a couple trades that fell through which would have given the Flames additional picks. Flames had the cap room to take on players or buy the player out. I recall Riberio was one that they targeted to get the pick and buyout (Ariz bought him out). There was another team, I want to say Carolina, but I am not sure.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think Treliving was also a little unlucky in that first year as he wasn't able to take advantage of cap space like some teams have done since. There were a couple trades that fell through which would have given the Flames additional picks. Flames had the cap room to take on players or buy the player out. I recall Riberio was one that they targeted to get the pick and buyout (Ariz bought him out). There was another team, I want to say Carolina, but I am not sure.

Was it Carolina with Cam Ward by chance?

Yeah, Ribiero and his NTC. NTC's are terrible as a fan of a team like CGY. Screw you way more than save you I imagine.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Was it Carolina with Cam Ward by chance?

Yeah, Ribiero and his NTC. NTC's are terrible as a fan of a team like CGY. Screw you way more than save you I imagine.

I want to say that it was Ward. Can only dream of getting the 7th and 12th that year and coming away with two of Nylander, Ehlers and Larkin.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Wait was there some Daymond Langkow slander in here?

Langkow was awesome... he's still the best centre I've ever watched on this team. All due respect to Monahan and Backlund and Lindholm (he's mostly a RW anyway)... but they have a ways to go in terms of being as consistently impactful as #22 was at his peak.

No slander, but specifically that Lindholm today is better than Langkow was in 2009, and that's not a stretch.

Peak Langkow was very very good at his peak.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No slander, but specifically that Lindholm today is better than Langkow was in 2009, and that's not a stretch.



Peak Langkow was very very good at his peak.

People get so caught up in age and potential. Langkow was still very effective until that puck nailed him in the back of the neck. He was 32, not 42. The difference between Lindholm and Langkow isn't as much as you say and they played different positions anyway so it's hard to compare. Langkow and Lindholm were/are both quality top 6 forwards. Lindholm will probably still be effective at 32 as well.