2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by dammage79

The biggest thing is not to let johnny walk for nothing.

No. The biggest thing is to attempt to win a Stanley Cup.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're speculating

Indeed, I am.

[TheScorpion]

I think calling Eller an elite defensive middle-six or second-line centre is more than fair. He is clutch and does whatever it takes to win. That goes beyond the scoresheet.

Also, BS that "youth and inexperience" means I like having guys all the way up and down my lineup who can contribute to a winning team. I like Ryan and I liked Jones because they were good pieces on deep Flames teams that provided different elements and gave the team versatility. I like my teams to be able to roll four great lines, it's natural that I like bottom-six forwards but I like good bottom-six forwards. I can't stress enough how frustrated I get by some guys who are asked to play bottom-six roles and are either unwilling or simply unable to do so. Kotalik, Neal, Frolik, Raymond... the list goes longer than that. That's why I like good middle- and bottom-sixers so much. It's way easier to be a top-six forward if you have the tools than to be a bottom-six forward if you have the tools. You have to be willing to work for it. Guys like Ryan, Jones, Lucic, and Eller have that work ethic that makes them so valuable to any team.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Let me pick one of those guys out. Lars Eller. Great player. Has moved the needle on every team he's ever played for. Clutch in the playoffs for Montreal and Washington. Scored the Cup-winning goal and is what I would call an elite second-line centre. And he's not even close to being the best guy on that list.

Lars Eller is the 3rd line center on Washington.
Kuvnetsov and Backstrom are the teams first and second line centers and are far better players.

So you calling him an elite second line center is kind of funny.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by New Era

Well we all have different perspectives on judging talent and contribution. You seem to get enamored with certain players, especially role players, and think a lot more of them than anyone else (Derek Ryan and David Jones for example), which is fine. Youth and inexperience has protected you from becoming jaded about players. I find most of these players as middling, easily replaceable, and nothing overly special. I reserve terms like "elite" for those that truly are. Just my take on things.

That’s a pretty weak take for a list that had clear exclusions (Dumba!?!?). Also the word elite wasn’t thrown around much while discussing the list you presented.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

No. The biggest thing is to attempt to win a Stanley Cup.

Uh ya duh. And if you believe they can get there within the two seasons before Johnny potentially walks, then cool id like to see it. But I don't belive that to be true.

[SportsJunky]

Lars Eller isn't an elite anything.

[Hockeyguy15]

Lars Eller is about as elite as the baby from Seinfeld is breathtaking.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Let me pick one of those guys out. Lars Eller. Great player. Has moved the needle on every team he's ever played for. Clutch in the playoffs for Montreal and Washington. Scored the Cup-winning goal and is what I would call an elite second-line centre. And he's not even close to being the best guy on that list.

This isn't the CPHL thread, you don't have to hype up the average players on your CPHL roster as "elite" in the thread about actual NHL hockey.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Guys like Ryan, Jones, Lucic, and Eller have that work ethic that makes them so valuable to any team.

Oh dude. Jones and Lucic valuable to any team? Jones was never valuable to anyone. He was a plug. Maybe Lucic was valuable before the Oilers took the life out him, but his play this season has been atrocious. His desire to play the role given him is gone. His value to the team is having the other guys play for him and try to keep him relevant. It's pathetic and sad to watch for a once great role player and warrior. I can give you Eller and Ryan having value in certain roles, but neither of them are elite anything. They have value but are both replaceable.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

Oh dude. Jones and Lucic valuable to any team? Jones was never valuable to anyone. He was a plug. Maybe Lucic was valuable before the Oilers took the life out him, but his play this season has been atrocious. His desire to play the role given him is gone. His value to the team is having the other guys play for him and try to keep him relevant. It's pathetic and sad to watch for a once great role player and warrior. I can give you Eller and Ryan having value in certain roles, but neither of them are elite anything. They have value but are both replaceable.

Agree with 90% of this post, but want to again defend Looch who I thought actually performed admirably in his limited role with our club, and I was looking forward to seeing him in the playoffs. The contract of course makes him not valuable, but as a player I think he could still have value in different circumstances.

None of the listed players were ever elite. Lucic comes closest, but elite to me means a top player on the club (1-3). Lucic was always the 4-5th best player on his club at most.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Guys like Ryan, Jones, Lucic, and Eller have that work ethic that makes them so valuable to any team.

They are generally only valuable if they have a very low cap hit and their play is above that.

And Lucic only looks good because our expectations were non-existent. Even ignoring his cap hit, he's a pretty poor player and likely a marginal NHL'er at best.

[TheScorpion]

Well we will simply have to agree to disagree.

I'm simply using "elite" as a descriptor btw. Fully aware that it's overused.

And yeah... Eller and Ryan are 40-point centres but their defensive impact and presence on the ice makes them extremely valuable players. I fully stand by this. And no, they aren't only valuable if they have league minimum salaries. I ask you this -- why? It's perfectly ok to pay guys $2.5-4 million if they're effective players.... Ryan and Eller wouldn't look out of place in any team's top-six.

You can't win with teams made up entirely of Taylor Halls and Johnny Gaudreaus. You definitely need them. But you need elite role players who can add depth to your lineup while being able to skate on all four lines to be able to win anything in this league. Every Cup winner ever has had these guys... a reason why the Oilers as they currently exist will never win anything is because their bottom-nine is weak and has no elite middle-six talent. Just because guys like Eller and Ryan aren't "big names" and because they're over 30 hardly makes them league average players. Once again if you think they're league average then you have awfully high expectations.

And David Jones wasn't a plug. You're simply wrong, IMO! But this isn't a conversation for this thread, today...

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by AC

No, which is why I said: "He may not be forming his opinion based off anything concrete he's heard from Gaudreau, but I bet his opinion is shaped by what he's seen and heard from the players themselves."

Also for accuracy, Leslie said definitively that Gaudreau wasn't coming back here first, and Eric Francis agreed.

I agree however, we don't know. Of course we don't.

I think the general consensus amongst those that are exploring trade hypotheticals however is that IF Gaudreau's time is limited, the window to maximize his value is open and gets more complicated the longer we wait.

Personally, I think if Treliving gets an indication that Gaudreau wants to test free agency, I think he has to move him before his contract is up. Having Gaudreau walk with no assets returning would be a disaster.

Yeah I agree with this, and I think the big thing is that Gaudreau wanting to test free agency to move closer to home is actually an opinion that's shared by most people around the Flames.

What I've heard personally from people close to the organization is that Gaudreau loves it in Calgary, but wants to be closer to his family and if possible would prefer to play close to home.

So as you said I think that comes down to a couple of things:

1) Has Gaudreau indicated he doesn't want to re-sign before the expiry of this contract to test free agency? (I've heard that this is the case)

2) Once he hits free agency are the Flyers, Devils, and New York Rangers going to be in a position to offer him a big contract? (Devils will have cap for sure, might be tougher for the Flyers with a flat cap)

3) Are the offers available in the market right now more valuable to the team than having Gaudreau for two more seasons at a fair contract? (This depends on the return)

These are the things that Treliving needs to weigh right now, and IMO the reason we are hearing about Gaudreau a lot in rumors from media is because point 1 & 2 appear to be that Gaudreau would have an opportunity to play closer to home if he makes it to UFA.

Plus if there is the opportunity to add Taylor Hall with no acquisition cost, while recouping cap space and assets in the form of a Gaudreau trade then it makes a ton of sense from that perspective too.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Agree with 90% of this post, but want to again defend Looch who I thought actually performed admirably in his limited role with our club, and I was looking forward to seeing him in the playoffs. The contract of course makes him not valuable, but as a player I think he could still have value in different circumstances.

None of the listed players were ever elite. Lucic comes closest, but elite to me means a top player on the club (1-3). Lucic was always the 4-5th best player on his club at most.

The only way Lucic provides value is if he plays the role given to him. That was to provide muscle and act as a deterrent to other teams. His response to Tkachuk getting ragdolled in Edmonton was the end for me. He crawled into a corner and died that night. Sure, he bumped his way through games, but he never had one of those Lucic moments where he skated into a scrum, took a number, then made life difficult for that player the rest of the game. The Flames have a problem because no one fears them. Lucic was to be a part of restoring that. He failed miserably in his role.

[TheScorpion]

With Johnny... you have Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and (most likely) Hall all here long-term to play the left side.

You have four main positions of need on the team, sorted here in order of priority:

Top-six centre
Top-six right wing
Top-four right defense
Long-term goaltender

You trade Johnny to cut down on costs, to preserve the effective depth of the team (guys like Backlund), and to address at least two of those positions. And you trade him because, of him, Mangiapane, Hall, and Tkachuk, he is the least likely to stay here for longer than two years.

Johnny is a great player and he helps this team win but you can make the team younger by trading him and you can address a couple of team needs by doing so. Get a young C or RW who you like. Get a right-shot defenseman to complete the future top-four. Get a couple picks to support a core around Tkachuk. That's the reasoning behind it.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

The only way Lucic provides value is if he plays the role given to him. That was to provide muscle and act as a deterrent to other teams. His response to Tkachuk getting ragdolled in Edmonton was the end for me. He crawled into a corner and died that night. Sure, he bumped his way through games, but he never had one of those Lucic moments where he skated into a scrum, took a number, then made life difficult for that player the rest of the game. The Flames have a problem because no one fears them. Lucic was to be a part of restoring that. He failed miserably in his role.

Selective memory- I was also mad at him for that edmonton game, no doubt we all should have been. That was pathetic. I contend that he did in fact play that role for a larger part of the season. I remember a vancouver game where he rocked Myers early on, who then proceeded to ghost the remainder of the game.

After Feb 1st lucic put up 9/20 points. He was starting to come on and it was showing in his linemates too. That was what was making me most excited for the playoff showing.

[Scroopy Noopers]

First game against the team that knocked us out of the playoffs, Lucic clocks the biggest guy on the team in the face.

The lack of response in the Edmonton game is just emotional whining. What, was he supposed to jump the boards and pound someone? Chase him with his skate Happy Gilmore style?

The guy fights and grinds, doesn’t fight one game and “fails miserably”. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

With Johnny... you have Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and (most likely) Hall all here long-term to play the left side.

You have four main positions of need on the team, sorted here in order of priority:

Top-six centre
Top-six right wing
Top-four right defense
Long-term goaltender

You trade Johnny to cut down on costs, to preserve the effective depth of the team (guys like Backlund), and to address at least two of those positions. And you trade him because, of him, Mangiapane, Hall, and Tkachuk, he is the least likely to stay here for longer than two years.

Johnny is a great player and he helps this team win but you can make the team younger by trading him and you can address a couple of team needs by doing so. Get a young C or RW who you like. Get a right-shot defenseman to complete the future top-four. Get a couple picks to support a core around Tkachuk. That's the reasoning behind it.

Good post. Sound thinking and approach. I would say we need a top end RW more than top six center, but that is personal preference. I agree with what you are saying what we should be targeting.

I would add that the cost cutting measure is not likely to play out how people think. We are going to have to take salary back. Its going to happen. Treliving will have to pull a full family of rabbits out of his ass to make a deal where he addresses the team needs without taking a salary back. The trick here is to take back the right salary that encourages your trading partner to give up the young cost controlled assets you're targeting at the same time. There in lies the rub. A deal is out there, it is one that is just going to take some work and the Flames eating some costs in creative ways.

[TheScorpion]

Lucic is probably the worst example of a good bottom-six player that I provided. He's an enforcer who doesn't fight enough and he doesn't skate well enough to be that effective of a forechecker. I like his positioning and he has a great shot. But he's certainly only effective in spot duty.

That said, 8 goals in 36 games to finish the season is nothing to scoff at. He's a great presence on the powerplay, probably the Flames' best net-front PP specialist since Bertuzzi. Is he ideal? No. Would I prefer him to make $1 million? Yep.

Lucic is the kind of bottom-sixer who is not the perfect player. I would agree with people who say he could be replaced by a league-minimum guy. He's not at all comparable to versatile guys like Ryan and Eller who play like they're a decade younger than they are. Lucic sometimes plays like he's a decade older than he is.

He's an affable figure off the ice and he's easy to like. I don't mind having him on the team... and I do think his work ethic is extremely valuable. These guys are people and I think having a person like Lucic around them is an asset. But at the same time, he's certainly not who I would call irreplaceable and I would prefer it if his contract could be expunged from the record, somehow. Even still, the trade was 100% a win.

Edit: and I should note, the above is me trying to talk about Lucic as objectively as possible. As a fan... I love him.