Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #1

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

This was the ultimate team Sutter created after years of building. How people can say he was bad is beyond me. That's a great team. I wish we had centre depth like that. Star goalie. Great top 6 D through and through. Forwards really deep and talented

We have much, much better centre depth. Centre was always a weakness, always a complaint about how Iginla never had a star C to play with.

Monahan>Jokinen
Lindholm>Langkow
Backlund>Conroy
Ryan>Boyd

Very confusing take.

[Robbob]

I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of the drafts that Sutter ran. Considering that Button is still around, would love to know what he recommended vs what Sutter took. I don't think Sutter ended up taking BPA and looked to slot a need.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VilleN

We have much, much better centre depth. Centre was always a weakness, always a complaint about how Iginla never had a star C to play with.



Monahan>Jokinen

Lindholm>Langkow

Backlund>Conroy

Ryan>Boyd



Very confusing take.

You think C Lindholm is better than C Langkow? Lindholm is a much better winger than a C. He shouldn't even be listed yet.

Monahan not actually much better than Jokinen imo.

You're dismissing Conroy. He was great in 09 still.

Ryan is a great 4th C but hardly overly important when considering the guys ahead of him. Having a great 4th is a luxury not a need.

09 C's are better. Lindholm isn't even a full time C. Did you watch Langkow play? Honest question. Easily one of the most underrated Flames of all time

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

You think C Lindholm is better than C Langkow? Lindholm is a much better winger than a C. He shouldn't even be listed yet.

Monahan not actually much better than Jokinen imo.

You're dismissing Conroy. He was great in 09 still.

Ryan is a great 4th C but hardly overly important when considering the guys ahead of him. Having a great 4th is a luxury not a need.

09 C's are better. Lindholm isn't even a full time C. Did you watch Langkow play? Honest question. Easily one of the most underrated Flames of all time

Yeah, I watched plenty thanks. He was good. Lindholm is on another level, even at C - which he played very well. Jokinen better than Monahan? Are you jokin? Jokinen was a disappointment when he came here.

I am not dismissing Conroy, he is good too, production-wise they are similar but Backlund is the better 200ft player.

Ryan is better than Boyd. Our centre depth now is a team strength and it is better than it was in '09, by a mile... Jokinen better than Monahan... unbelievable.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Having Jarome Iginla helped significantly. Sutter's best move as GM was bringing in Kiprusoff... which is better than anything Tre has done.

Despite that, I think when you look at their bodies of work Tre comes out on top, mainly on the strength of drafting and RFA signing.

I don’t get that

I find Sutter to have been better at
- having two goalies to start every season
- not hiring Glen Gulutzan
- on ice results in general

Treliving has been here for 6 years now, 0 for 2 in coaching hires, and not much to show for it on the ice. I guess he has some decent draft picks but then the can’t miss high picks like Tkachuk come as a reward for lousy on ice performance

If they defeat Winnipeg then Tre will have seen back to back playoff appearances for the first time. If they go on to make noise in the playoffs then we can revisit, but the on ice results really have to amount to more, in order to have done more for the team than Sutter

[Sylvanfan]

Sutter did have the most chances at it...but he is the only GM who managed to draft a NHL player in the 20's

Even Pelletier's early returns look a lot more Chucko than Backlund.

Lesson is...if the team is looking like it will pick 20 or later....trade the pick at the deadline. Keep picks in other rounds.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by The Professor

But I think you have to take the bad with the good. Tre just doesn’t have the horrible trades that Sutter has. He may at some point but he doesn’t yet. Yes he swung and missed on some free agents but the good far outweigh the bad. Or slightly more than with Sutter IMO.

I agree with this perspective. And I will gladly take the bad that comes with the good.

For me Treliving hasn't had enough good yet. Sutter's good crushes BT's at this point IMO.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Having Jarome Iginla helped significantly. Sutter's best move as GM was bringing in Kiprusoff... which is better than anything Tre has done.

Despite that, I think when you look at their bodies of work Tre comes out on top, mainly on the strength of drafting and RFA signing.

The last three of Tre's drafts can't even be fully evaluated yet. Valimaki could be nothing. Dube could be nothing. Pelletier could be nothing. There isn't a lot of help coming that I can see, nothing substantially greater than an average team imo. 2014 and 2015 were bad with the exception of Andersson I don't see any decent players. 2016 was really good. Give the scouts credit... but are we really giving Treliving the nod because Edmonton and Vancouver messed up? No Tkachuk and BT is probably fired by now. His RFA signings are great but negated by his UFA signings. There is 8m in dead space on the roster right now. 10% of the cap, it's pretty significant. Not even including Bennett and Janko in the dead money conversation but they aren't helping. How can you give Tre the nod thanks to decent drafts that are difficult to evaluate right now mostly and good RFA signings that were wasted? How many millions did he save on those great deals? More than the 8-10m in dead space on the roster currently? I doubt it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I agree with this perspective. And I will gladly take the bad that comes with the good.

For me Treliving hasn't had enough good yet. Sutter's good crushes BT's at this point IMO.

Really?

Gladly?

I'll be the first to admit that no GM gets it 100% right. It just isn't that kind of job. But if a guy makes terrible trades they have to net out against the good ones when it comes to team building.

Getting Kiprusoff was an amazing deal, and I loved the Langkow deal as well. I thought Sutter was a genius until well he wasn't. Not sure what happened at the end but a lot of damage was done.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Yeah, I watched plenty thanks. He was good. Lindholm is on another level, even at C - which he played very well. Jokinen better than Monahan? Are you jokin? Jokinen was a disappointment when he came here.

I am not dismissing Conroy, he is good too, production-wise they are similar but Backlund is the better 200ft player.

Ryan is better than Boyd. Our centre depth now is a team strength and it is better than it was in '09, by a mile... Jokinen better than Monahan... unbelievable.

If you're going to say Lindholm is a better C than Langkow there isn't much else for us to discuss. I think Lindholm is a 1RW and a 2/3C. Langkow was as good as Monahan, probably better because he was actually a decent two way player. Jokinen wasn't the true 1C we needed but still a 60 point 1way C. Guess what Monahan is? Also I never said Jokinen was better, re-read the post.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

The last three of Tre's drafts can't even be fully evaluated yet. Valimaki could be nothing. Dube could be nothing. Pelletier could be nothing. There isn't a lot of help coming that I can see, nothing substantially greater than an average team imo. 2014 and 2015 were bad with the exception of Andersson I don't see any decent players. 2016 was really good. Give the scouts credit... but are we really giving Treliving the nod because Edmonton and Vancouver messed up? No Tkachuk and BT is probably fired by now. His RFA signings are great but negated by his UFA signings. There is 8m in dead space on the roster right now. 10% of the cap, it's pretty significant. Not even including Bennett and Janko in the dead money conversation but they aren't helping. How can you give Tre the nod thanks to decent drafts that are difficult to evaluate right now mostly and good RFA signings that were wasted? How many millions did he save on those great deals? More than the 8-10m in dead space on the roster currently? I doubt it.

First of all, you can't negate RFA sigings because he's made questionable UFA signings. The RFA signings were not "wasted", they were really good signings and most of the UFA signings in hindsight, are bad (save Frolik). 8-10m dead space? I assume you are talking about Lucic, Bennett and Janko? That isn't dead space, it's just poor value... and only Lucic is the egregious contract.

2015 was a very good draft for the Flames. We used the the 15th, 45th and 52nd picks to acquire a young, very good Dman, A+ move. Then with our remaining picks we got Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane... absolutely crushed that draft. 2014 was bad, I will give you that.

The jury is still out on Tre, so far I would say he is a slightly above average GM... he needs to get some post-season results ASAP (next 2 seasons)or I think it may be time to move on.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

If you're going to say Lindholm is a better C than Langkow there isn't much else for us to discuss. I think Lindholm is a 1RW and a 2/3C. Langkow was as good as Monahan, probably better because he was actually a decent two way player. Jokinen wasn't the true 1C we needed but still a 60 point 1way C. Guess what Monahan is? Also I never said Jokinen was better, re-read the post.

Agree to disagree I suppose; and fair enough you did not say Jokinen was better than Monahan... I don't think it is even close. In any case, we aren't going to change each others minds, but if I could have Iginla play alongside Monahan or Lindholm, I would do it in a heartbeat over Jokinen or Langkow.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Agree to disagree I suppose; and fair enough you did not say Jokinen was better than Monahan... I don't think it is even close. In any case, we aren't going to change each others minds, but if I could have Iginla play alongside Monahan or Lindholm, I would do it in a heartbeat over Jokinen or Langkow.

Joki gets a bad ride around here. He was ppg in this prime and his down years were Monahan's best years with the exception of 2018/19. I like Monahan actually. Just wish he was our 2C and we had a true 1C. Full story on Mony not written yet like Joki but I feel Joki is basically Finnish version Monahan, slightly more dynamic but slightly less cerebral.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VilleN

First of all, you can't negate RFA sigings because he's made questionable UFA signings. The RFA signings were not "wasted", they were really good signings and most of the UFA signings in hindsight, are bad (save Frolik). 8-10m dead space? I assume you are talking about Lucic, Bennett and Janko? That isn't dead space, it's just poor value... and only Lucic is the egregious contract.



2015 was a very good draft for the Flames. We used the the 15th, 45th and 52nd picks to acquire a young, very good Dman, A+ move. Then with our remaining picks we got Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane... absolutely crushed that draft. 2014 was bad, I will give you that.



The jury is still out on Tre, so far I would say he is a slightly above average GM... he needs to get some post-season results ASAP (next 2 seasons)or I think it may be time to move on.

Whoops forgot Mangi in that draft, good point. Hamilton trade was fair when you consider the players selected in and around those picks. Had BT made smart picks instead we might even be further ahead.

The 8m is Lucic+buyouts. Add 4m for Bennett and Janko because they are very replaceable. 12m-3m for replacement players and you're left with 9ish million. Probably more than the amount he saved on Gaudreau, Monahan and Lindholm's deals. Hamilton's was good rfa deal too but he's gone now. Hanifin was fair for the 4D he is currently.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by The Professor

But I think you have to take the bad with the good. Tre just doesn’t have the horrible trades that Sutter has. He may at some point but he doesn’t yet. Yes he swung and missed on some free agents but the good far outweigh the bad. Or slightly more than with Sutter IMO.

I consider the Hamonic trade horrible. A 1st and two 2nd round picks for a 4th defenseman that seems to drag the play of his partner down is hard to sugarcoat. Darryl made some bad moves but he never gave up that much future assets for a player.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I consider the Hamonic trade horrible. A 1st and two 2nd round picks for a 4th defenseman that seems to drag the play of his partner down is hard to sugarcoat. Darryl made some bad moves but he never gave up that much future assets for a player.

The hamonic trade was top 5 bad for this franchise, especially given where we were actually at in the rebuild. When we talk about this franchise being asset poor, that trade was a huge reason why. 1sts should never really be traded unless you are a true blue SC contenders. Even the Smith and Elliott trades were garbage. Lazar... oh man. Bollig for a 3rd? Why? At least Sutter got guys like Bourque (another underrated Sutter player) and when trading 2nds. The Hiller/Ramo approach is better for a rebuilding team. Like how much better was Smith or Elliott going to be compared to 2014/15 Hiller? He fell apart in year two but ufa was definately the way to go if you're just picking up middling goalies anyway.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

You think C Lindholm is better than C Langkow? Lindholm is a much better winger than a C. He shouldn't even be listed yet.

Monahan not actually much better than Jokinen imo.

You're dismissing Conroy. He was great in 09 still.

Ryan is a great 4th C but hardly overly important when considering the guys ahead of him. Having a great 4th is a luxury not a need.

09 C's are better. Lindholm isn't even a full time C. Did you watch Langkow play? Honest question. Easily one of the most underrated Flames of all time

Even if we say Monahan and Jokinen are similar, and a 32 year old Langkow is a bit better than a 25 year old Lindholm (I disagree), Backlund is still better than Conroy (who was very good, but not at his peak) and Ryan is miles and miles better than Boyd.

You can't say "wish we had that depth!" and then say "having a great 4th center is a luxury." Yeah... it's a luxury called great depth. We have enough depth that one of our best two centers doesn't need to regularly play center (though Lindholm is second on the team in faceoffs taken, and better than Backlund at them). We also have Dube and Jankowski, both better than Boyd already.

Those mid-2000s teams built by Sutter were my first experience as a young Flames fan, so by default I will always look at them with rose coloured glasses. But there is no argument worth having that suggests our center depth was better back then. Not at the top six, and certainly not in the bottom six.

Our center depth today is much better than it was in 09, no question.

[Robbob]

Looking at the 2004 draft were they took Chucko, looking at the scouting central ranking for NA skaters the following were still available. Dave Bolland (8) Mike Green (9), Bryan Bickell (18). Chucko was ranked (29).

The butterfly effect from that one draft would be interesting. Don't reach for Pelech the next year or add depth and take away key piece from Chicago. Maybe keep some second rounders as you potentially have players that graduate. Those drafts were the reason why the Flames failed to get over the top with the the big pieces they had.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

The hamonic trade was top 5 bad for this franchise, especially given where we were actually at in the rebuild. When we talk about this franchise being asset poor, that trade was a huge reason why. 1sts should never really be traded unless you are a true blue SC contenders. Even the Smith and Elliott trades were garbage. Lazar... oh man. Bollig for a 3rd? Why? At least Sutter got guys like Bourque (another underrated Sutter player) and when trading 2nds. The Hiller/Ramo approach is better for a rebuilding team. Like how much better was Smith or Elliott going to be compared to 2014/15 Hiller? He fell apart in year two but ufa was definately the way to go if you're just picking up middling goalies anyway.

I don't like the Hamonic deal but it isn't anywhere near top 5.

Here are some of the more horrific deals
- Gilmour
- Phaneuf
- Mullen
- Regehr
- Jokinen for Higgins+Kotalik
- Bouwmeester
- Stralman
- Lydman
- Savard
- JS Giguere
- Reinhart

With Hamonic they overpaid for a player - but they got a guy who at least contributed for 3 years. There are far worse deals.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Even if we say Monahan and Jokinen are similar, and a 32 year old Langkow is a bit better than a 25 year old Lindholm (I disagree), Backlund is still better than Conroy (who was very good, but not at his peak) and Ryan is miles and miles better than Boyd.



You can't say "wish we had that depth!" and then say "having a great 4th center is a luxury." Yeah... it's a luxury called great depth. We have enough depth that one of our best two centers doesn't need to regularly play center (though Lindholm is second on the team in faceoffs taken, and better than Backlund at them). We also have Dube and Jankowski, both better than Boyd already.



Those mid-2000s teams built by Sutter were my first experience as a young Flames fan, so by default I will always look at them with rose coloured glasses. But there is no argument worth having that suggests our center depth was better back then. Not at the top six, and certainly not in the bottom six.



Our center depth today is much better than it was in 09, no question.

Lindholm isn't even a full time C, why is even brought up? He was tried there out if desperation. He's a much better winger. If BT thinks this is good C depth, we are screwed.

2009 had 3 elite (or close to) 2Cs and a AHL level player.

2020 has an elite 2C. An elite 3C. An elite 4C. And a RW people want to classify as a C. I mean he was passable in that role but he is an elite RW. Play him top line and watch 25+ goal 65-75 point seasons roll in with excellent two way play. Or play him 2C and watch him turn into a generic 2C who gets like 50 points.

2009 would kick the #### out of 2020 if they were to somehow play. It wouldn't even be close. Much more complete team.