Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #1

[FireGilbert]

I'm surprised Fletcher doesn't have 99% of the votes. It's not even close between him and the other GMs. Looking at the others:

-Risebrough: Just a disaster. Through a series of questionable moves he slams the cup window shut and ushers in a decade of darkness. I know the NHL financial situation was changing at the time but a competent GM could have squeezed out another playoff run while staying competitive into the future.

-Coates: Didn't like him at the time but can admit he tried his best in a bad situation. Acquiring Iggy and Reggie were some of the best moves out of a bad situation in Flames history. The drafting was pretty horrible for a rebuilding team though and I wasn't a fun of the trades that also brought back a veteran. For example in the Iginla trade a draft pick would have been better long term than Corey Millen.

-Button: Who the hell voted for him? Are you trolling me? He tried I guess and I liked the focus on filling the starting goalie hole. That Savard trade though and general team building was just horrible. At least he had enough assets on the team to left for Sutter to use though.

-Sutter: Really tough to judge. Based on his best it's an easy 2nd but looking at overall he was pretty mediocre. His start as Flames GM has to be one of the best management performances in history with a series of great moves leading to the cup run. He then followed it up with some clever moves in the new CBA building the 06 division winning team. Then it was all downhill. His drafting gets a D which over 8 drafts really hurt the team. He also had major issues finding a coach and a team identity which seemed to swap between offensive or defensive. Then when you add in all the late panic win now trades it starts to look really bad. I have no idea how to rank Sutter.

-Feaster: Ugh so mediocre. Started off poorly trying to win now. Was okay starting the rebuild and improved the drafting. It could have been better though with the 2012 and 2013 drafts being big disappointments. His free agent signings were okay but man the trades were mostly bad and many times strange. Getting nothing for Iginla really hurt and all of the Regehr, Bouwmeester, and Tanguay/Sarich moves were dumb. Also loses even more points for ushering in the Blake Comeau era. Did not like.

-Burke: Such a short tenure. Picked up two draft picks including that 2nd for Berra which is still one of the biggest steal trades in Flames history. Failed to get anything for Cammy though. Also managed to bring some professionalism and swagger back to the team leading to the confrontations with Vancouver and setting the team up well for a confident 2014-15 season. OMG I can't believe I am actually considering giving my 2nd place vote to a guy with 138 days as GM.

-Treliving: Still a work in progress. Hard to deny he has brought a professional approach to team building and has greatly improved drafting and development. Trades have been a mixed bag but good on average while the less said about free agency and buyouts the better. He has built a playoff team with the first division banner in over a decade so I'm thinking top half of Flames GMs right now. The next 5 years will determine whether he ends up ranked next to Fletcher or is just another one on a lengthy list of mediocre.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The fact that none of Sutter's teams made it out of the first round since the miracle run in 2004 doesn't align with this assertion. I see no good reason to claim that his teams were any better than Treliving's—to this point they have all been pretty underwhelming.

Come on. The 08/09 team was awesome. If it wasn’t for all the injuries that team could’ve done some serious damage. It had everything. Solid blue line, forwards with a good mix of skill and grit. And an all world goaltender. Best flames team on paper since early 90’s.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

Come on. The 08/09 team was awesome. If it wasn’t for all the injuries that team could’ve done some serious damage. It had everything. Solid blue line, forwards with a good mix of skill and grit. And an all world goaltender. Best flames team on paper since early 90’s.

Also running into the Blackhawks who just about made it to the finals that year. One year before their Stanley cup victory. Such an unlucky season for a great team.

[TheScorpion]

Yup. Still pissed they kept Jokinen over Cammalleri.

Cammalleri - Jokinen - Iginla
Bertuzzi - Langkow - Bourque
Glencross - Conroy - Moss
Nystrom - Boyd - Primeau
Roy

Phaneuf - Aucoin
Regehr - Sarich
Giordano - Leopold
Vandermeer/Pardy

Kiprusoff
McElhinney

Very good team.

[Roof-Daddy]

Yeah that 09 team was good. Killed by injuries in their last gas attempt with that core. Not just in the playoffs either. They had a huge lead on the canucks at the deadline for 1st place in the division and blew it, resulting in the much tougher 1st round match up.

[FireGilbert]

Oh yeah that 09 team was pretty good and could have gotten past the Hawks if that game 1 OT went differently.

Didn’t they run into some cap issue too where they couldn’t put the injured players on reserve and had no room for call ups. Can’t remember if that was Sutter’s fault for mismanagement of the cap or just really bad luck.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah that 09 team was good. Killed by injuries in their last gas attempt with that core. Not just in the playoffs either. They had a huge lead on the canucks at the deadline for 1st place in the division and blew it, resulting in the much tougher 1st round match up.

You know you're in bad shape when the league changes the rules after the fact because of how badly things turned out for you.

Remember that the Flames had so many injuries down the stretch, that they had to dress less than a full roster because they couldn't afford to call up any replacement players. The rules at the time didn't allow a team to put a player on LTIR if there were less than 10 games left in the season (because LTIR requires a player to miss a minimum of 10 games, and the cap doesn't apply in the postseason).

After Regehr's injury, with 6 games left, the Flames only dressed 5 d-men for the final 5 games of the season. They went 2-3-0 in those five games, including a loss to the Canucks. Vancouver finished 2 points ahead of the Flames (and the Flames held the tiebreaker). One extra win down the stretch and the Flames would have had home ice against St Louis in the first round, instead of starting on the road in Chicago.


The Flames' defence in the final two games of the season was: Aucoin, Leopold, Negrin, Pardy, and Vandermeer. Aucoin was the only one who was in the top-5 for total ice time for defence on the team that season. Phaneuf, Regehr, Sarich, and Giordano were all out of action by the end of the season.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by getbak

You know you're in bad shape when the league changes the rules after the fact because of how badly things turned out for you.

Remember that the Flames had so many injuries down the stretch, that they had to dress less than a full roster because they couldn't afford to call up any replacement players. The rules at the time didn't allow a team to put a player on LTIR if there were less than 10 games left in the season (because LTIR requires a player to miss a minimum of 10 games, and the cap doesn't apply in the postseason).

After Regehr's injury, with 6 games left, the Flames only dressed 5 d-men for the final 5 games of the season. They went 2-3-0 in those five games, including a loss to the Canucks. Vancouver finished 2 points ahead of the Flames (and the Flames held the tiebreaker). One extra win down the stretch and the Flames would have had home ice against St Louis in the first round, instead of starting on the road in Chicago.


The Flames' defence in the final two games of the season was: Aucoin, Leopold, Negrin, Pardy, and Vandermeer. Aucoin was the only one who was in the top-5 for total ice time for defence on the team that season. Phaneuf, Regehr, Sarich, and Giordano were all out of action by the end of the season.

Brutal. Crazy how deep that blue line was though. Imagine if they were all healthy.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by getbak

You know you're in bad shape when the league changes the rules after the fact because of how badly things turned out for you.

Remember that the Flames had so many injuries down the stretch, that they had to dress less than a full roster because they couldn't afford to call up any replacement players. The rules at the time didn't allow a team to put a player on LTIR if there were less than 10 games left in the season (because LTIR requires a player to miss a minimum of 10 games, and the cap doesn't apply in the postseason).

After Regehr's injury, with 6 games left, the Flames only dressed 5 d-men for the final 5 games of the season. They went 2-3-0 in those five games, including a loss to the Canucks. Vancouver finished 2 points ahead of the Flames (and the Flames held the tiebreaker). One extra win down the stretch and the Flames would have had home ice against St Louis in the first round, instead of starting on the road in Chicago.


The Flames' defence in the final two games of the season was: Aucoin, Leopold, Negrin, Pardy, and Vandermeer. Aucoin was the only one who was in the top-5 for total ice time for defence on the team that season. Phaneuf, Regehr, Sarich, and Giordano were all out of action by the end of the season.

Yeah.

IIRC...

Bourque was out with a high ankle sprain
Langkow had a broken hand/thumb but was still playing
Bertuzzi was also hurt

That was the whole 2nd line

Some other forwards were also banged up, like Cammy and Moss I believe.

[GGG]

Sutter the GMs worst moves was firing Daryl as coach.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Yup. Still pissed they kept Jokinen over Cammalleri.

Cammalleri - Jokinen - Iginla
Bertuzzi - Langkow - Bourque
Glencross - Conroy - Moss
Nystrom - Boyd - Primeau
Roy

Phaneuf - Aucoin
Regehr - Sarich
Giordano - Leopold
Vandermeer/Pardy

Kiprusoff
McElhinney

Very good team.

This was the ultimate team Sutter created after years of building. How people can say he was bad is beyond me. That's a great team. I wish we had centre depth like that. Star goalie. Great top 6 D through and through. Forwards really deep and talented

People criticize Sutter for inheriting Iginla and Regehr. They forget that he had a huge role in developing Regehr from mediocre bottom/mid pairing guy to elite, tough shutdown guy, probably the best in the league in that role for a few years. So he inherited Iginla. Fortunate and also increased expectations far beyond what BT had initially. BT also inherited Gio, Johnny and Monahan, it's worth noting.

I would argue Sutter moved the needle quite well for a few years until it all fell apart. You almost have to evaluate Sutter from 04-09 separately from the 2010 disaster. Conjecture, but I believe there was stuff going on behind the scenes that helped trigger that mess. It's either that or Sutter went mad. Literally crazy, undoing years of building in a 48 hour period. I don't know, I remember it quite well and my reaction was more wondering why than being mad at Sutter. He treated Phaneuf like a hot potato. Apparently other GMs didn't even know he was available. I know the team was struggling but the whole thing reeked to me. Then the Jokinen for Higgins and Kotalik disaster. Trading a top 6 C and a top 2 D for a slew of depth? Yeah... there was more to the story there for sure. I'd bet on meddling owners but that's just me. Or player drama, one of the two. Phaneuf had to go for some reason and off he went in the worst trade in franchise history. His value was ridiculous at the time, probably could've netted a Jeff Carter type if Sutter was patient and waited until the offseason.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

This was the ultimate team Sutter created after years of building. How people can say he was bad is beyond me. That's a great team. I wish we had centre depth like that. Star goalie. Great top 6 D through and through. Forwards really deep and talented

People criticize Sutter for inheriting Iginla and Regehr. They forget that he had a huge role in developing Regehr from mediocre bottom/mid pairing guy to elite, tough shutdown guy, probably the best in the league in that role for a few years. So he inherited Iginla. Fortunate and also increased expectations far beyond what BT had initially. BT also inherited Gio, Johnny and Monahan, it's worth noting.

I would argue Sutter moved the needle quite well for a few years until it all fell apart. You almost have to evaluate Sutter from 04-09 separately from the 2010 disaster. Conjecture, but I believe there was stuff going on behind the scenes that helped trigger that mess. It's either that or Sutter went mad. Literally crazy, undoing years of building in a 48 hour period. I don't know, I remember it quite well and my reaction was more wondering why than being mad at Sutter. He treated Phaneuf like a hot potato. Apparently other GMs didn't even know he was available. I know the team was struggling but the whole thing reeked to me. Then the Jokinen for Higgins and Kotalik disaster. Trading a top 6 C and a top 2 D for a slew of depth? Yeah... there was more to the story there for sure. I'd bet on meddling owners but that's just me. Or player drama, one of the two. Phaneuf had to go for some reason and off he went in the worst trade in franchise history. His value was ridiculous at the time, probably could've netted a Jeff Carter type if Sutter was patient and waited until the offseason.

After years of building that was the best team he had built, agreed, but it was a house of cards built in a wind storm. The only players of any significance under the age of 25 on that roster were a 23 year old Dion and a 24 year old Gio. Plus the prospect pool was completely barren with just Brodie and Backlund as future NHLers who were a ways away from having any impact.

Iginla was 31, Kipper 31, Lanks 31, Olli 30, Bert 33, Sarich 30, Conny 36, Aucoin 35.

That's your #1 goalie, star forward and all you centers 30+. How long was that going to last with no decent prospects?

Cammy, Bourque, Moss and Glencross were all 26, but Cammy was a UFA who Sutter chose to let go and the rest of those wingers weren't going to keep that ship afloat.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sutter the GMs worst moves was firing Daryl as coach.

It would have been for the best for the organization if he remained as head coach and hired his own GM. Daryl would still be making all the final decisions but the GM could do all the legwork kind of like how the Belichick runs the Patriots and Reid the Chiefs.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

After years of building that was the best team he had built, agreed, but it was a house of cards built in a wind storm. The only players of any significance under the age of 25 on that roster were a 23 year old Dion and a 24 year old Gio. Plus the prospect pool was completely barren with just Brodie and Backlund as future NHLers who were a ways away from having any impact.



Iginla was 31, Kipper 31, Lanks 31, Olli 30, Bert 33, Sarich 30, Conny 36, Aucoin 35.



That's your #1 goalie, star forward and all you centers 30+. How long was that going to last with no decent prospects?



Cammy, Bourque, Moss and Glencross were all 26, but Cammy was a UFA who Sutter chose to let go and the rest of those wingers weren't going to keep that ship afloat.

I agree it was not long for the world but that was a great team in a vacuum. A rebuild was inevitable after the Iginla years after pushing so hard to win with him. It's not like Sutter was going to be around for that, so he pushed his chips in. Lots of GMs wouldve done the same. The drafting was really unfortunate. I think he was figuring it out a bit at the end but it's not like the current pipeline is very good so...

People act like Sutter did wrong by us. I'd argue it was the opposite. He delivered the best hockey this city has seen since 95, and it hasn't been that good since. He wasn't a great long term guy but he almost won us a cup. The 06 and 09 teams were true cup contenders in my view. Then he whiffed on Playfair and Iron Mike. No injuries and we probably go on a run in 09. The debate after the tdl was who is better, DET, CGY or SJ? CHI was there too but for a bit we were ripping it up and that was with a terrible head coach. I think had those injuries not happened we would've had another year to romanticize over. They had a chance, all those 06-09 teams did. Not sure you could describe the current team as having a chance. To me they are a bubble team that got really hot for 4 months in 18/19.

I think if Sutter had hired a young, smart AGM in 2006 to help take the load off, instead of hiring Playfair to replace him as coach, things are quite a bit different.

[The Professor]

But I think you have to take the bad with the good. Tre just doesn’t have the horrible trades that Sutter has. He may at some point but he doesn’t yet. Yes he swung and missed on some free agents but the good far outweigh the bad. Or slightly more than with Sutter IMO.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I agree it was not long for the world but that was a great team in a vacuum. A rebuild was inevitable after the Iginla years after pushing so hard to win with him. It's not like Sutter was going to be around for that, so he pushed his chips in. Lots of GMs wouldve done the same. The drafting was really unfortunate. I think he was figuring it out a bit at the end but it's not like the current pipeline is very good so...

People act like Sutter did wrong by us. I'd argue it was the opposite. He delivered the best hockey this city has seen since 95 or since. He wasn't a great long term guy but he almost won us a cup. The 06 and 09 teams were true cup contenders in my view. Then he whiffed on Playfair and Iron Mike. No injuries and we probably go on a run in 09. The debate after the tdl was who is better, DET, CGY or SJ? CHI was there too but for a bit we were ripping it up and that was with a terrible head coach. I think had those injuries not happened we would've had another year to romanticize over. They had a chance, all those 06-09 teams did. Not sure you could describe the current team as having a chance. To me they are a bubble team that got really hot for 4 months in 18/19.

I think if Sutter had hired a young, smart AGM in 2006 to help take the load off, instead of hiring Playfair to replace him as coach, things are quite a bit different.

I don't think Sutter did wrong by us, I just think he was a better coach than GM and as soon as he stepped down as coach his weaknesses as GM became more magnified.

I would rank him 3rd or 4th all time Flames GM

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't think Sutter did wrong by us, I just think he was a better coach than GM and as soon as he stepped down as coach his weaknesses as GM became more magnified.



I would rank him 3rd or 4th all time Flames GM

Sorry I didn't mean you specifically, more what I interpret general fan sentiment to be. Would you rank BT ahead of Sutter? I see the arguement for Coates but it's close for me. Coates left the team in better shape than he inherited if you consider all the factors, Sutter didn't. But Sutter delivered some good-great teams which was his actual job.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Sorry I didn't mean you specifically, more what I interpret general fan sentiment to be. Would you rank BT ahead of Sutter? I see the arguement for Coates but it's close for me. Coates left the team in better shape than he inherited if you consider all the factors, Sutter didn't. But Sutter delivered some good-great teams which was his actual job.

It's Fletcher then Treliving for me, then Sutter or Coates. Haven't decided yet.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

At least his teams were widely regarded as SC contenders from 04-10. I'm not sure what we are now, but we aren't contenders, and there is little hope of that changing barring some crazy good luck.

We actually had it really good under Sutter for years. Yes his drafting sucked, but he built teams that had a better shot than the teams that BT has constructed.

Having Jarome Iginla helped significantly. Sutter's best move as GM was bringing in Kiprusoff... which is better than anything Tre has done.

Despite that, I think when you look at their bodies of work Tre comes out on top, mainly on the strength of drafting and RFA signing.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by The Professor

But I think you have to take the bad with the good. Tre just doesn’t have the horrible trades that Sutter has. He may at some point but he doesn’t yet. Yes he swung and missed on some free agents but the good far outweigh the bad. Or slightly more than with Sutter IMO.

BT has made lots of treading water/pointless trades. Sutter knew he couldn't draft and aquired guys like Kipper, Tanguay, Jokinen, Cammalleri thanks to draft pick capital, fully or partially.

BT almost seems stuck right now, unsure what the next step is. Hasn't made an impact trade in two years. Has only made two net positive trades (both Hamilton trades). His whole rebuilding legacy is hinging on trading for that 6'6" unicorn and then trading him away. Lindholm is a beauty. Hanifin is meh imo. Drafting average at best. Not a great pipeline when compared to most teams. Addicted to trading picks. Terrible at UFA signings and a buyout champ as a result. Forced into trading for one of the worst contracts in hockey. No success really other than a wild, unrepeatable 2015 season and an equally, for different reasons, wild and unrepeatable 2019 season. There is no blue print as far as I can tell. It's a collection of players, not a true complete team. Where is your 1C? Your 1G? Our 3rd and 2nd line C's need to be pushed down the lineup. The blueline is uncertain. What has he been doing for six years? I hate where this team is at right now.