Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #1

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Except it doesn't. Once a deficit is gone, you can no longer blame the past. Blaming Sutter for this is like blaming Getty for Alberta's current debt.

He was allowed to start from zero. Fans embraced the rebuild. Who cares what Sutter did? BT should've built more slowly and patiently. Sutter has nothing to do with that.

If you would've told me in 2014 that we would draft 35/42 in the next 6 years, I would say no way, that makes no sense. Yet here we are.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I never claimed it started new with a new GM, I'm saying more than enough was done to eliminate that deficit by people after Sutter. I literally showed that if Treliving hadn't traded so many picks, there would have easily been a surplus. Treliving eliminated and draft pick deficit and then created a new one, albeit a very small one because he's supplemented the loss of picks with adding NCAA and European free agents.

Right but he traded picks to address needs
Teams with enough assets do that without creating long term issues
That’s the long term price of being asset depleted...the inability to take a balanced approach to be able to address needs and keep an eye on the future
Ironically which is what Sutter also faced causing him to trade picks
Again what made it worse though was when he did have picks he blew them

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

He was allowed to start from zero. Fans embraced the rebuild. Who cares what Sutter did? BT should've built more slowly and patiently. Sutter has nothing to do with that.

If you would've told me in 2014 that we would draft 35/42 in the next 6 years, I would say no way, that makes no sense. Yet here we are.

Well we don’t know to what degree and for how long ownership was allowing him to rebuild which is likely another long term issue for this organization that I think impacted the last four gms and their approach

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Right but he traded picks to address needs

Teams with enough assets do that without creating long term issues

That’s the long term price of being asset depleted...the inability to take a balanced approach to be able to address needs and keep an eye on the future

Ironically which is what Sutter also faced causing him to trade picks

Again what made it worse though was when he did have picks he blew them

Treliving didn't have to do it though. He was allowed to start from nothing. Previous years don't matter. I doubt the owners were telling him to trade picks.

[Jiri Hrdina]

How do we know what he was allowed to do and for how long?
Suddenly an organization that has a history of trying to win now was signing off on an exnteded rebuild? I don’t know how you can stare that with certainty

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Well we don’t know to what degree and for how long ownership was allowing him to rebuild which is likely another long term issue for this organization that I think impacte5d the last four gms and their approach

It was basically scorched earth in 2013. If they were saying make the playoffs in two year to BT, I retract all criticism. 2015 was the fluke that changed everything. It was up to BT to manage owner's expectations to a degree.

[ignite09]

People also need to go look at fan attendance between the mid 90's to that 04 run when judging Sutter. That run doesn't happen without his moves that year, and it completely revitalized the fan base. Yes of course the CBA played a huge role saving this club financially, but so did the paying 19000+ fans that were now going through the turnstiles every night. We've been able to spend to the cap every year for a reason.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ignite09

People also need to go look at fan attendance between the mid 90's to that 04 run when judging Sutter. That run doesn't happen without his moves that year, and it completely revitalized the fan base. Yes of course the CBA played a huge role saving this club financially, but so did the paying 19000+ fans that were now going through the turnstiles every night. We've been able to spend to the cap every year for a reason.

It was a really fun time to be a fan. Might be nostalgia talking, but those teams had actual potential that just wasn't realized. I often think of 2005 as the year that could've been. Without that lockout, we probably see 35-50 from Iggy and vezina like numbers from Kipper. The salary cap was needed and losing 2004-05 to get it was worth it. Its just too bad. I think it was Iginla's 26 y.o. season, it probably would've been a great year. Too bad Sutter couldn't find a way to nab Thornton or Pronger when they became available.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It's not an assertion. The fact that those teams disappointed doesn't mean they weren't considered top 10 teams by many going into those seasons. Unless I'm misremembering, might be I guess. The disappointing results dont mean they weren't solid teams. The 06 and 09 teams could've won cups, they were good enough, just got unlucky imo. Get by Anaheim in 06 and we slaughter EDM I'm certain of it. 09 we looked godly until injuries destroyed us.

07 and 08 were Sutter's worst teams in that five year stretch and yet still better than anything BT has produced aside from the impossible to repeat 2019 team

What is more likely? That your recollections of a regime from 15-years ago are sound, or that your opinion is bering badly skewed by an obvious and well-documented bias against the current General Manager?

I am betting on the latter.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

At least his teams were widely regarded as SC contenders from 04-10. I'm not sure what we are now, but we aren't contenders, and there is little hope of that changing barring some crazy good luck.

We actually had it really good under Sutter for years. Yes his drafting sucked, but he built teams that had a better shot than the teams that BT has constructed.

Those teams were all vastly over rated because of rhe cup run and Iggy/Kipper.

They were never a legit contender though, those teams mostly struggled to get into the playoffs and once they did, were easily dispatched by much better teams.

It was a flawed team trying to build around a winger, a defensive dman, an over rated offensive dman an no true number 1 center. Plus Sutters regime couldnt draft worth a damn so in about 5 years it all fell apart.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Sutter is a clear #2 here

The Flames were, frankly, not very good when he came in. Just think about how quickly he turned the team around. Obviously Kipper was a once in a lifetime trade. But there was more to it than that. They had a few pieces, with guys like Connie and Yelle.

Rhett Warrener was a tremendous add, on and off the ice, he had gone deep with Florida and did it again with Calgary. Steven Reinprecht brought a 180 foot game and a winning pedigree. Simon was among the toughest around, and had been a contributor when he got his ring. Adding Marcus Nilson and Ville Nieminen and playing them with Donovan - they were tenacious, a great third line.

He very quickly surrounded Iginla with a supporting cast that really gelled, made noise after sneaking in the playoffs. (And, of course, it was in!)

Then, as much as guys like Amonte and Friesen underachieved, he added a lot of other good pieces like Tanguay, Cammalleri, etc. The game changed post lockout and he had a team that was competing for the division every year. That last year with Keenan, it’s unfortunate they were so ravaged by injuries, as they were as good a contender as we saw. Sucked that ownership forced him to fire Keenan - not his choice - and then it all went downhill with Brent

Always exciting, he had some other trades that were steals - Huselius, Rene Bourque. Although JBo didn’t end up a favourite of mine, acquiring both him and Jokinen were big name players that filled needs, Olli hoped to be that #1C for Jarome

Phaneuf had to go due to internal issues but there at least was a silver lining in Matty Stajan with the series winner

As for Tre, he is fine so far, but you can’t help but admitting that Feaster added some of the core pieces and the team has really done little so far under Tre’s leadership. They still don’t have an identity, which has been lacking since Hartley’s “find a way Flames.”

I remember the excitement of the “In Sutter we trust” days. Took a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in 7 years and were a perennial playoff team, at of near the top of the division. Clear #2 IMO

[Roof-Daddy]

The Flames quickly turned things around when Sutter got here because he was a great coach, not a great GM. He was adequate for a while but his drafting caught up with him and then he went off the rails his last year here.

[Mr.Coffee]

Sutter brought in Kiprusoff for a 2nd round pick.

People are debating if Miika Kirpusoffs jersey should hang beside Vernons in the rafters, and arguably was the greatest goaltender in franchise history. None of the Flames 2004 run happens without that trade. Plus heading into that post season, making defensive depth trades as well as Niemenin, Simon... the man had some great GM trade instincts I feel- outside of the Phaneuf deal which I agree was quite bad.

Sutters drafting was poor for sure, but I didn’t mind his trades too badly, he was able to land some decent high profile free agent signings for the times and again... that Kipper trade.. man.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The Flames quickly turned things around when Sutter got here because he was a great coach, not a great GM. He was adequate for a while but his drafting caught up with him and then he went off the rails his last year here.

I itemized several player adds that were key contributors. Ignore that all you want.

Obviously his drafting wasn’t great and he traded away draft picks like candy but he was going for it. Still did more as a GM than anyone else not named Fletcher

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I itemized several player adds that were key contributors. Ignore that all you want.

Obviously his drafting wasn’t great and he traded away draft picks like candy but he was going for it. Still did more as a GM than anyone else not named Fletcher

Sutter made plenty of good moves I agree, but his best move was Kipper and it covered up a lot of warts that his teams had. He inherited one of the best power forwards in the game but failed to get him a true 1C, even when Thornton was dealt from east to west for peanuts, to a division rival.

Anyways, I have him ranked after Treliving in my order.

[dino7c]

Sutter fluked out with Kipper...if he thought he would be anywhere near that good he would have made the move earlier not just because of injury.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Sutter fluked out with Kipper...if he thought he would be anywhere near that good he would have made the move earlier not just because of injury.

I remember reading somewhere that Kipper wasn't even the goalie he wanted from San Jose, but they wouldn't part with the one he did want so he took Kipper. It might have been Toskala. I wish I could remember where I read that.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I remember reading somewhere that Kipper wasn't even the goalie he wanted from San Jose, but they wouldn't part with the one he did want so he took Kipper. It might have been Toskala. I wish I could remember where I read that.

Yeah, I don't remember the specific source, but that has been posted before.

At the time, the Sharks had Nabokov, Toskala, and Kipper all in San Jose because they didn't want to risk losing one of them on waivers (and they obviously would have).

Everyone knew they had to eventually move one of them, and Darryl was familiar with them all because of his time as the Sharks coach. His preference was Toskala, but he was also the Sharks' preference to keep. After Turek got hurt, Sutter couldn't wait any longer and made the deal, settling for Kipper.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What is more likely? That your recollections of a regime from 15-years ago are sound, or that your opinion is bering badly skewed by an obvious and well-documented bias against the current General Manager?



I am betting on the latter.

My opinion of Sutter has nothing to do with BT other than to compare the two. I would defend Sutter any time, even though he wasn't amazing, I contend Sutter gets unfairly bashed when you weigh his pros and cons. He delivered the best hockey this city has seen since 1995. He didn't draft well. His good moves are glossed over. His bad ones, namely two bad trades, are used to crucify him. Better coach than GM but people act like he was worse than he was for sure.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

How about Bouwmeester as a UFA? He was looked at as a great GM at that point. What happened next? I have suspicions

Please elaborate?