2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Tbull8]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Consensus is he didn't have a good year and so far hasn't proven to be a good pick.

THN re-draft:
https://thehockeynews.com/news/artic...t-unfold-today

Has Broberg dropping from 8 to 17.
Pelletier (BWT) goes from 26 to 32, but is miss-attributed to Chicago.

Still excited about Pelletier, but it does sting a bit to see how good McMichael has been after being taken right before our pick. 102 points in 52 games!?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Tbull8

Still excited about Pelletier, but it does sting a bit to see how good McMichael has been after being taken right before our pick. 102 points in 52 games!?

McMichael, Hoglander and Robertson are the 3 biggest risers in their draft + 1 year so far.
Both are shaping up to be tremendous picks by their teams.
Vancouver, so far, had a really good draft.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

McMichael, Hoglander and Robertson are the 3 biggest risers in their draft + 1 year so far.
Both are shaping up to be tremendous picks by their teams.
Vancouver, so far, had a really good draft.

Benning has been absolutely brutal at UFA signings but overall the guy seems like he's a draft wizard (Juolevi the exception) and has made some really great trades.

He's probably the ultimate mixed bag GM in the league right now.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

McMichael, Hoglander and Robertson are the 3 biggest risers in their draft + 1 year so far.
Both are shaping up to be tremendous picks by their teams.
Vancouver, so far, had a really good draft.

Vancouver, outside of that horrid Juolevi pick, has absolutely crushed it at the draft.

Podkolzin at 10
Hoglander at 40

Hughes at 7

Pettersson at 5

Boeser at 23

Demko at 36

Horvat at 9

Taking Virtanen at 6 and Juolevi at 5 isn't great, but when you're grabbing Hughes at 7, Boeser at 23 and Horvat at 9 you're doing pretty damn well. Virtanen's pick can be forgiven due to the weak scouting done that year ("the board" was just wrong that season).

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Benning has been absolutely brutal at UFA signings but overall the guy seems like he's a draft wizard (Juolevi the exception) and has made some really great trades.

He's probably the ultimate mixed bag GM in the league right now.

Very similar to Treliving. Strong at the draft, brutal in free agency - I'd say Benning is the better trader though. Acquiring Hamilton is the only fantastic deal he's made in my eyes.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Benning has been absolutely brutal at UFA signings but overall the guy seems like he's a draft wizard (Juolevi the exception) and has made some really great trades.



He's probably the ultimate mixed bag GM in the league right now.

Has he been that bad at UFA with the exception of Eriksson? And who could've foreseen that he would turn into an AHL player so fast? His other signings are all role players like Roussel and Beagle, contracts that will be off the books by the time they actually need the money. They are actually really well set up. Benning takes a lot of flak even though he is better than BT. He just isnt a smooth talker like BT so he doesnt inspire confidence that way. He also doesn't come across like he's all that intelligent but his body of work is starting to look real good. He has a great scouting background and has helped build a good young team with a great farm system. I would take goofy memes of Treliving if he could deliver like that. With BT we have a guy who can clearly talk the talk but what evidence do we have that this rebuild was even successful? No success so far and the future looks uninspiring. I'd prefer if we heard less smooth talk and he delivered better results instead. Enough about 'the process' ffs. I'm starting to think there is no process really. Just another buzz word BT likes to drop. If it is legit, I think you need a new process. This one isn't working.

Imo, BT is the ultimate mixed bag. His rfa deals are great, has made two good trades in seven years and hemorrhages picks at an alarming rate and we now see the effects in the farm system. His ufa deals are legendary for their pure awfulness. Our rebuild was half baked while it seems that Benning actually had a plan after all. For years I was relieved we 'dodged a bullet' in benning when he was rumored to come here. BT really fooled me with his ability to talk while I was way too harsh on benning for basically sounding like a moron half the time. I think BT would be a better GM on an established team with a good base of assets. Benning is clearly the better rebuilder.

[Jiri Hrdina]

It remains to be seen if the Canucks are perhaps making the same mistake the Flames did to kick open their contending window. The Miller deals and Toffoli deals smell a little like this - though the early returns seem positive.
But the question is - do their efforts to accelerate their re-build and move up the contending window - impact the long-term success of that.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It remains to be seen if the Canucks are perhaps making the same mistake the Flames did to kick open their contending window. The Miller deals and Toffoli deals smell a little like this - though the early returns seem positive.
But the question is - do their efforts to accelerate their re-build and move up the contending window - impact the long-term success of that.

This is going to make me sick to my stomach to type, but the Canucks rebuild is already in way better shape than the Flames because:

1) They actually have an elite, play driving #1C (Petterson)
2) They also have a strong two way #2C that still produces offense (Horvat)
3) They have yet another young C who looks like a future star (Gaudette)
4) They drafted an elite #1 Dman who will likely compete for the Norris regularly (Hughes)
5) They may have actually drafted a future #1 goalie who is already in the NHL (Demko)

As long as they leave enough money to pay those guys, and quit pumping money into players like Myers, Roussel and Beagle they're in really good shape with that young core.

Bennett flopped for CGY
Gillies and McDonald flopped
Our #1 Norris dman is now 36
3 of our 4 best forwards are wingers (Lindholm sort of a C maybe)

It's kind of a mess. Still a competitive team, but weak down the middle, no stud #1 Dman in the works, and goaltending as always a huge question mark.

Well now, that was depressing.

[Toonage]

Much of the Canucks future success depends on getting Markstrom back in the fold. He was an enormous part of what success they had this season. That will be a big challenge for Benning.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Has he been that bad at UFA with the exception of Eriksson? And who could've foreseen that he would turn into an AHL player so fast? His other signings are all role players like Roussel and Beagle, contracts that will be off the books by the time they actually need the money. They are actually really well set up. Benning takes a lot of flak even though he is better than BT. He just isnt a smooth talker like BT so he doesnt inspire confidence that way. He also doesn't come across like he's all that intelligent but his body of work is starting to look real good. He has a great scouting background and has helped build a good young team with a great farm system. I would take goofy memes of Treliving if he could deliver like that. With BT we have a guy who can clearly talk the talk but what evidence do we have that this rebuild was even successful? No success so far and the future looks uninspiring. I'd prefer if we heard less smooth talk and he delivered better results instead. Enough about 'the process' ffs. I'm starting to think there is no process really. Just another buzz word BT likes to drop. If it is legit, I think you need a new process. This one isn't working.

Imo, BT is the ultimate mixed bag. His rfa deals are great, has made two good trades in seven years and hemorrhages picks at an alarming rate and we now see the effects in the farm system. His ufa deals are legendary for their pure awfulness. Our rebuild was half baked while it seems that Benning actually had a plan after all. For years I was relieved we 'dodged a bullet' in benning when he was rumored to come here. BT really fooled me with his ability to talk while I was way too harsh on benning for basically sounding like a moron half the time. I think BT would be a better GM on an established team with a good base of assets. Benning is clearly the better rebuilder.

Benning had a plan? Benning promised playoffs every year and being an elite cup contender in year 5 (last year). The only time they've made the playoffs was in Benning and Treliving's first years, and the Flames came out on top. The Flames have made the playoffs twice since then, the Canucks haven't.

Benning's record: 211-213-55
Treliving's record: 248-190-42

Benning wiffed on TWO high first rounders (Joulevi and Virtanen). He traded McCann, a 2nd, and a 4th for Gudbranson, who turned into a turd. He's traded plenty of draft picks himself, either for bad players, players not worth the pick, or even just trading down in the draft. He chronically overpays guys, including Eriksson, Sutter, Sbisa, Beagle, Gagner, and Baertschi (who they're paying 3 million to play in the AHL). He's held on to players when they had no shot at the playoffs, letting them walk for nothing instead (Hamhuis, Miller). He's also just plain unlucky, with multiple signings/trades resulting in players that either don't fit or can barely suit up for a game (Ferland, Gudbranson, Del Zotto, etc.).

So, this idea that Benning has it all figured out and had a plan all along is pretty laughable. He hasn't met his own expectations and promises, most of his draft successes and failures seem to have come down to luck (both good and bad), and his signings and trades have ranged anywhere from decent to atrocious.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Benning had a plan? Benning promised playoffs every year and being an elite cup contender in year 5 (last year). The only time they've made the playoffs was in Benning and Treliving's first years, and the Flames came out on top. The Flames have made the playoffs twice since then, the Canucks haven't.

Benning's record: 211-213-55
Treliving's record: 248-190-42

Benning wiffed on TWO high first rounders (Joulevi and Virtanen). He traded McCann, a 2nd, and a 4th for Gudbranson, who turned into a turd. He's traded plenty of draft picks himself, either for bad players, players not worth the pick, or even just trading down in the draft. He chronically overpays guys, including Eriksson, Sutter, Sbisa, Beagle, Gagner, and Baertschi (who they're paying 3 million to play in the AHL). He's held on to players when they had no shot at the playoffs, letting them walk for nothing instead (Hamhuis, Miller). He's also just plain unlucky, with multiple signings/trades resulting in players that either don't fit or can barely suit up for a game (Ferland, Gudbranson, Del Zotto, etc.).

So, this idea that Benning has it all figured out and had a plan all along is pretty laughable. He hasn't met his own expectations and promises, most of his draft successes and failures seem to have come down to luck (both good and bad), and his signings and trades have ranged anywhere from decent to atrocious.

And yet their future looks considerably better than ours. You omit their owner's expectations for playoffs and the fact that their rebuild didn't officially start until a couple years after ours. He was forced to try to win with the Sedins as shadows of their former selves. He of course said their expectations were to win, it was a foolish direction from his boss.

Their window is about to open big time. If you want to attribute that to luck and no plan, that's up to you. Has our window even opened yet? I honestly can't tell. Whatever BT is doing, at least he has the smooth corporate speak down pat. Personally, I'll take the guy that can draft any day over whatever strengths you say BT has. His biggest strength seems to be selling people on a vision for the team that takes 7+ years to achieve. The 'process' is actually selling people on the process. He's an empty suit as far as I'm concerned. It should not take 7 years to build a contender, and we aren't even there yet. Not by a long shot. Why do people think this current mediocrity is acceptable? We should be much better, we've had since 2013 to build something special and this management has failed us. Stability in management is only a good thing when the manager is actually delivering results.

[TheScorpion]

Their future looks considerably better than the Flames for one reason: they got lucky with the Pettersson pick.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is going to make me sick to my stomach to type, but the Canucks rebuild is already in way better shape than the Flames because:

1) They actually have an elite, play driving #1C (Petterson)
2) They also have a strong two way #2C that still produces offense (Horvat)
3) They have yet another young C who looks like a future star (Gaudette)
4) They drafted an elite #1 Dman who will likely compete for the Norris regularly (Hughes)
5) They may have actually drafted a future #1 goalie who is already in the NHL (Demko)

As long as they leave enough money to pay those guys, and quit pumping money into players like Myers, Roussel and Beagle they're in really good shape with that young core.

Bennett flopped for CGY
Gillies and McDonald flopped
Our #1 Norris dman is now 36
3 of our 4 best forwards are wingers (Lindholm sort of a C maybe)

It's kind of a mess. Still a competitive team, but weak down the middle, no stud #1 Dman in the works, and goaltending as always a huge question mark.

Well now, that was depressing.

Horvat isn't that great.

Demko although filling in admirably hasn't come close to proving himself at the top level.

Boeser after impressing early is in and out of the lineup now and not making much the same impact.

Hughes looks like a great D but the depth chart after him looks like crud.

Pettersen is a producer but I'm not sure with his stick like frame that still hasn't bulked up that he's going to impact the big games like some of the best Cs who can lean on guys too. Dude is super lanky and has finesse but lacks strength to go with it.

Despite all their awesome adds and whatnot they were still falling off the rails without markstrom's well above average goaltending.

And despite being beat a couple times by them in some crappy home performances, the Flames have generally severely dominated games in vancouver with their 'worse' rebuild.

Guess it all depends on how their guys develop but I wouldn't be so quick to anoint guys as their ceilings until they reach them.

Grass is greener effect really has a hold of this place sometimes.

With a couple important moves and signings in the coming months the Flames can take a big step to correct the course of their rebuild.

I also think its silly to overlook capturing 2nd in the NHL with this group. I dont see the canucks doing that any time soon.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is going to make me sick to my stomach to type, but the Canucks rebuild is already in way better shape than the Flames because:

1) They actually have an elite, play driving #1C (Petterson)
2) They also have a strong two way #2C that still produces offense (Horvat)
3) They have yet another young C who looks like a future star (Gaudette)
4) They drafted an elite #1 Dman who will likely compete for the Norris regularly (Hughes)
5) They may have actually drafted a future #1 goalie who is already in the NHL (Demko)

As long as they leave enough money to pay those guys, and quit pumping money into players like Myers, Roussel and Beagle they're in really good shape with that young core.

Bennett flopped for CGY
Gillies and McDonald flopped
Our #1 Norris dman is now 36
3 of our 4 best forwards are wingers (Lindholm sort of a C maybe)

It's kind of a mess. Still a competitive team, but weak down the middle, no stud #1 Dman in the works, and goaltending as always a huge question mark.

Well now, that was depressing.

You put a lot nicer than I do lol. I see things as basically the same. The recipe the flames have is flawed. Can't build around wingers and are now too good to draft a 1C, the one ingredient that is a must.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Their future looks considerably better than the Flames for one reason: they got lucky with the Pettersson pick.

If BT made that pick we would call him a genius. Face it, Benning is good at drafting, it's his #1 asset and easily the most important skill a GM can have.

People point to Virtanen, but he is developing still, made huge strides this year and is better than Bennett. Juolevi was a whiff but if you look at their team they needed D prospects the most. It has been a position of chronic weakness for that team's entire history.

[Icon]

Just to play devil's advocate ...

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

1) They actually have an elite, play driving #1C (Petterson)
2) They also have a strong two way #2C that still produces offense (Horvat)
3) They have yet another young C who looks like a future star (Gaudette)
4) They drafted an elite #1 Dman who will likely compete for the Norris regularly (Hughes)
5) They may have actually drafted a future #1 goalie who is already in the NHL (Demko).

1) Monahan might still be this, though obviously a different type of player.... I'd agree this is the Flames weakest point.
2) Backlund when he's healthy and on his game is basically Horvat.
3) Dube has a chance at this role I feel, if they can sort out the deployment and roll 3 scoring lines.
4) Having seen very little of Valimaki yet I'm still optimistic.
5) I'm still hoping Parsons turns out, if not, Wolf is looking good too. Granted, not in the NHL, but I don't think who we have are that bad either until these guys are ready

[SeanCharles]

No one thinks Lindholm could be our #1 center and be like a Bergeron 2-way type guy?

Monahan at #2C...

I think we have the makings of a solid top 9 group with Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Backlund, Mangiapane and Dube.

If we could add a couple guys to push Lucic and Ryan down to the 4th line we would be pretty deep at forward.

[djsFlames]

Don't forget Hall!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

And yet their future looks considerably better than ours. You omit their owner's expectations for playoffs and the fact that their rebuild didn't officially start until a couple years after ours. He was forced to try to win with the Sedins as shadows of their former selves. He of course said their expectations were to win, it was a foolish direction from his boss.

Their window is about to open big time. If you want to attribute that to luck and no plan, that's up to you. Has our window even opened yet? I honestly can't tell. Whatever BT is doing, at least he has the smooth corporate speak down pat. Personally, I'll take the guy that can draft any day over whatever strengths you say BT has. His biggest strength seems to be selling people on a vision for the team that takes 7+ years to achieve. The 'process' is actually selling people on the process. He's an empty suit as far as I'm concerned. It should not take 7 years to build a contender, and we aren't even there yet. Not by a long shot. Why do people think this current mediocrity is acceptable? We should be much better, we've had since 2013 to build something special and this management has failed us. Stability in management is only a good thing when the manager is actually delivering results.

And you omit our owner's expectations and the fact that guys like King (RIP) put themselves into decisions which affected the way BT operated.

If you want to just have a rant about BT go wild, all the empty suit business just seems pretty childish, but go for it. I don't even think Treliving is great, but I don't share the same issues you have that seem a little more personal.

If we're looking at it objectively, though, Treliving has had more success than Benning thus far, and the idea that "Benning had a plan all along!" is pretty silly, when he has his own mountainous share of mistakes.

Sure, they have some promising looking draft picks, but how a future looks isn't predictive of how it'll be, and you can't judge a GM based on a future that hasn't happened yet. Not to hockey-Godwin the conversation, but I've heard plenty of cries about how great the future looks for some teams and how being elite is just a foregone conclusion. Feel free to take the highway up north to see how rocky the road can be between a "high potential" team and an "elite" team.

It's great that the Canucks have a great handful of prospects. Before we actually sing Benning's praises, maybe lets watch to see how his habit of costly mistakes helps them reach the status you apparently feel they should already get credit for.

[Roof-Daddy]

You see though, everyone is grasping at straws to find equal footing here.

"Maybe Lindholm could be a 1C..."
"Maybe Dube could get there still..."
"Maybe Valimaki could be a...."


I know, believe me I hope so too, but...

1. Petterson IS a 21 year old point per game play driving #1C
2. Horvat IS a 25 year old 2 way C who is now consistently producing 0.7ppg+
3. Gaudette IS a 23 year old C who just produced 0.56ppg as a sophomore with 12 minutes of ice time per game
4. Hughes IS a 20 year old who just played 21 minutes per game and scored 0.8ppg as a rookie

We'd all being making messes in our pants with a young core like that.

Granted, whoever said Demko hasn't proven anything yet is quite right, but that is still a pretty awesome core there to build from. I hope they screw it up by continuing to overpay veteran UFAs'. Myers long term at $6 million was a good start, hopefully they keep doing more of that.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Their future looks considerably better than the Flames for one reason: they got lucky with the Pettersson pick.

To me getting “lucky” is having Tkachuk falling to #6. In the case for Petterson it was the scouts doing their job correctly. I believe at the time Peterson was a bit of a reach at #5 especially with Cody Glass still on the table. I hate the Canucks but they did great work realizing why Peterson should have been taken #5