Violence in Gaza...

[Looger]

interesting post eazyduzzit.

a saw a flick awhile ago that echoes some of your observations regarding the day-to-day life in the occupied territories, 'peace, propoganda & the promised land':

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...romised%2BLand

for the record i'm quite sure that the VAST majority of israelis do not want to live in fear forever, and genuinely want peace with their neighbours - but there's always the harder edge of zionism that has been tolerated for a long time, that 5-10% of the knesset that swings coalitions and can keep settlements going up. these are the dudes that at the very least want the greater judea, and at worst interpret religious teachings as saying that they have to cleanse the land of its current inhabitants as in the old testament. funny but we never hear much aboot these guys on the news and the statements they make all the time...

for every theodor herzl there seems to be a jabotinsky in the zionist political juggernaut, this has been in my opinion the core problem the whole way - i honestly think that without this harder edge and the terrorism that comes with it the first real steps towards peace could be taken.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Azure

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/821015.html

Is it time for international involvement?

So long as they arent Canadians, Americans, Australians, or British - sure.

Let France, Germany, Belgium handle this one.

MYK

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

So long as they arent Canadians, Americans, Australians, or British - sure.

Let France, Germany, Belgium handle this one.

MYK

Sending in international troops would be the farthest thing from peacekeepers that we would ever seen. Any force would have to have a heavy offensive capability and be mandated to wipe out the fighting factions, and the various terrorist groups. I also doubt that the Palestines would want another occupation army in thier midsts.

The casualties for UN peacekeepers based on percentages would put Afghanistan to shame.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sending in international troops would be the farthest thing from peacekeepers that we would ever seen. Any force would have to have a heavy offensive capability and be mandated to wipe out the fighting factions, and the various terrorist groups. I also doubt that the Palestines would want another occupation army in thier midsts.

The casualties for UN peacekeepers based on percentages would put Afghanistan to shame.

Exactly - The Anglo Saxan countries have enough on the plate as is and would only inflame an already inflamed situation. You dont need countries sending over troops that the majority of Arabs likely think (and probably rightfully so) support Isrealy because of predominant Christian views.

Is this not a "difference of opionion" between two Palestinian factions? What exactly is the reason they are unalbe to settle their own problems like adults? Agreed, Isreal should stay the hell out.

MYK

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Exactly - The Anglo Saxan countries have enough on the plate as is and would only inflame an already inflamed situation. You dont need countries sending over troops that the majority of Arabs likely think (and probably rightfully so) support Isrealy because of predominant Christian views.

Is this not a "difference of opionion" between two Palestinian factions? What exactly is the reason they are unalbe to settle their own problems like adults? Agreed, Isreal should stay the hell out.

MYK

Israel, which has made lasting peace with two of its Muslim neighbours, has very effectively walled the barbarians out . . . . . so no one should be surprised the barbarians have turned on each other for lack of anything better to do.

And yes, I agree they shouldn't have built parts of that wall on Palestinian land . . . . . nevertheless, for lack of anything else to attack or blame, its interesting Palestinians are chewing themselves to pieces.

As the global population expands, I think you'll see more of these walls becoming an answer for troublesome neighbours . . . Saudi's wall across its Iraq frontier (the equivalent of Lethbridge to Grande Prairie) and the recent announcement that Pakistan is also building a wall across parts of its Afghan frontier. No doubt you're going to see some sort of wall along the Mexican/USA border as well.

Cowperson

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Israel, which has made lasting peace with two of its Muslim neighbours, has very effectively walled the barbarians out . . . . . so no one should be surprised the barbarians have turned on each other for lack of anything better to do.

And yes, I agree they shouldn't have built parts of that wall on Palestinian land . . . . . nevertheless, for lack of anything else to attack or blame, its interesting Palestinians are chewing themselves to pieces.

As the global population expands, I think you'll see more of these walls becoming an answer for troublesome neighbours . . . Saudi's wall across its Iraq frontier (the equivalent of Lethbridge to Grande Prairie) and the recent announcement that Pakistan is also building a wall across parts of its Afghan frontier. No doubt you're going to see some sort of wall along the Mexican/USA border as well.

Cowperson

I don't know about physical walls being the answer especially on the U.S. mexican border, there's basically no wall that can't be dug around, under or crawled over. The Berlin wall was considered to be fairly leaky in terms of defectors making it to the other side.

I think the walls that you will see over the next few years are more in countries foreign policies. If America does leave Iraq does it usher in another period of U.S. isolationism both choosen and forced upon them. Do other nations firewall themselves from the trouble in Gaza.

I can see a lot of the more developed nations throwing up thier hands and deciding not to intervene or do business in the more volitile areas of the world.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know about physical walls being the answer especially on the U.S. mexican border, there's basically no wall that can't be dug around, under or crawled over. The Berlin wall was considered to be fairly leaky in terms of defectors making it to the other side.

I think the walls that you will see over the next few years are more in countries foreign policies. If America does leave Iraq does it usher in another period of U.S. isolationism both choosen and forced upon them. Do other nations firewall themselves from the trouble in Gaza.

I can see a lot of the more developed nations throwing up thier hands and deciding not to intervene or do business in the more volitile areas of the world.

Technology today might make these impervious . . .

The Great Wall of Saudi Arabia . . . this is what $700 million will buy.

Outwardly the great desert wall will appear mundane, with two metal barriers running 100 metres apart, lined with barbed wire at the base and top.

On the Iraqi side, alarms will notify patrols if an intruder attempts to scale or cut through the fence. Between the two fences will be yet more barbed wire, piled in a tall pyramid.

But its effectiveness will rely on its more sophisticated or hidden countermeasures. Under the baking sand will be buried sensor cables relaying a silent alarm to monitoring posts at regular intervals along the border. At the posts, face-recognition software will process pictures relayed from cameras, which will also be able to operate at night.

Behind the line of the fence, command and control centres with heliports will provide bases for troops to respond to any alert.

Even spy satellites will not be able to unravel the fence's secrets. The source speculated the reason for the secrecy might be automated weapons systems attached to the fence that could fire on suspected intruders.

They seem serious about the word "sealing."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gre...641578406.html

On the Mexico/USA frontier, its a great debate as to whether or not America actually wants that frontier sealed. Obviously there are elements that do but there are other elements that obviously don't. Wage inflation would certainly be a bigger issue in America if millions of Mexicans weren't flying over the border.

Cowperson

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

And yes, I agree they shouldn't have built parts of that wall on Palestinian land . . . . .

And the Israeli Supreme Court agrees with you and has ordered changes to the route of the security fence/wall - it is mostly fencing with concrete sections.

As the global population expands, I think you'll see more of these walls becoming an answer for troublesome neighbours . . . Saudi's wall across its Iraq frontier (the equivalent of Lethbridge to Grande Prairie) and the recent announcement that Pakistan is also building a wall across parts of its Afghan frontier. No doubt you're going to see some sort of wall along the Mexican/USA border as well.

Cowperson

Saudi Arabia has a security fence already - along the Yemen boarder (to prevent terrorism). India has a fence in Kashmir (on disputed land - to prevent terrorism). The European Union has a fenced off enclave around Ceuta and Melila in Morroco (to prevent unwanted European immigration).

[Looger]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Exactly - The Anglo Saxan countries have enough on the plate as is and would only inflame an already inflamed situation. You dont need countries sending over troops that the majority of Arabs likely think (and probably rightfully so) support Isrealy because of predominant Christian views.

i'm not convinced it's this simple, i think that if you look at the recent lebanon conflict last summer with israeli fighter planes and NATO ships nearly shooting at each other, you may see that many israelis don't want ANY foreign nationals hanging around at all.

there's definitely agendas within israel that do not want witnesses to what is going on.

barry chamish, my favourite israeli conspiracy theorist (israel's violent political scene makes MANY conspiracy theorists...), has for a long time been warning that the end of israel will include foreign (vatican) troops, i wouldn't call his view a dominant one but many people there seem to think that foreign troops are not the answer in any case.

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Is this not a "difference of opionion" between two Palestinian factions? What exactly is the reason they are unalbe to settle their own problems like adults? Agreed, Isreal should stay the hell out.

MYK

the nature of peoples' lives in the occupied territories makes for violence-infused politics, also international assistance comes in the form of weapons shipments and that further radicalizes things.

fatah has been receiving US support for years, and there's a lot of evidence that israel and the US were behind hamas in the late 1980s as a hedge against arafat.

regardless of whether or not israel has directly supported islamic terror on purpose or whether it's rogue elements within mossad that aren't trying to protect the israeli people, it doesn't seem to matter - the policy of balkanization is clearly at work here. palestinian paramilitary organizations are to a very high degree infiltrated and in many cases controlled by israeli intelligence and/or arab countries that have both their own reasons to keep things stirred up, or keep palestine in total chaos.

this policy of balkanization is being implemented in iraq, and efforts are underway to implement it in iran.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Looger

for the record i'm quite sure that the VAST majority of israelis do not want to live in fear forever, and genuinely want peace with their neighbours

Definitely.

Only problem is, they want peace on there terms. I've found that just as much as that extreme right politician wants Jerusalem and most strategic land in the southern West Bank, due to religious sites and land rich in agraculture, as well as creating a monopoly around land rich in agricultural and keeping all settlements in central West Bank, so too does the avarage Israeli. I'd have to re-look up the statistics but it's somewhere in the 70% range of Israelis that support settlements and not only settlements but the expansion of them.

Originally Posted by Cowpoerson

As the global population expands, I think you'll see more of these walls becoming an answer for troublesome neighbours . . . Saudi's wall across its Iraq frontier (the equivalent of Lethbridge to Grande Prairie) and the recent announcement that Pakistan is also building a wall across parts of its Afghan frontier. No doubt you're going to see some sort of wall along the Mexican/USA border as well.

To compare the two, that Saudi wall would have to annex Iraqi territory and wall in the Iraqi population on there land.

Maybe wall in a few oil field into the mix as well.

[HOZ]

Hamas and Fatah to reach compromise. They'll hate the dirty, monkey Jews together.



Meanwhile back in mobland.....

Hamas and Fatah trade fire at Gaza border

[Looger]

good one HOZ.

make sure you completely ignore all the religious nuts in israel that call for the extermination of all arabs though.

oh that's right, you already are!!!

[Looger]

also be sure to conveniently glaze over when israel and the US back one faction or another, depending on which way the wind is blowing.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGIPMV3N61.DTL


"The U.S.' involvement in attempts to bring down the Hamas government has only made things worse for Abbas and Fatah," wrote Khaled Abu Toameh, Palestinian affairs correspondent for the Jerusalem Post, in a commentary titled "Guns and Poses."
"The U.S. believes that by giving Abbas more rifles and cash, it would be able to bring about regime change. But in the West Bank and Gaza, there is no shortage of weapons. Tons of explosives, rifles and missiles are smuggled across the Egyptian border nearly every day. What the Palestinians need is not more rifles -- which they never use to stop Hamas, Islamic Jihad or other militias anyway -- but good governance and credible leaders," he wrote. "American meddling in Palestinian affairs is backfiring, because many Palestinians are beginning to look at Abbas and Fatah as pawns in the hands of the U.S. and Israel. This does not help Abbas and moderate secular Palestinians, who are facing the dangers of the growing power of Islamic fundamentalism."

ha. good one. 'backfiring'. right...

it's funny but israeli media is a great place to find real discussion of these issues. they know that backing one faction against another is a one-way trip to radicalization, they know these things because they see the direct affects, they see how much less safe they are this week when a horrible policy or reprisal was enacted last week.

balkanization. the complete destruction of an organized, nationalist, secular resistance to israel's total dominion over the middle east.

see also lebanon, see also iraq - the last thing that zionism/colonialism as a movement wants to see is well-educated, socially advanced arabs. much better to have a rabble of islamic fundamentalism, thereby justifying the slow ethnic cleansing and guaranteeing assistance from us.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Looger

good one HOZ.

make sure you completely ignore all the religious nuts in israel that call for the extermination of all arabs though.

oh that's right, you already are!!!

Are they shooting themselves up too?

Or are they doing some Spock mindmeld thingy on the Palestians to get them to fight?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Are they shooting themselves up too?

better not look into that possibility too close. because agendas this dark care not for the death of a few israelis.

best to skip any book written by former mossad agents.

best to not read at all actually.

Originally Posted by HOZ

Or are they doing some Spock mindmeld thingy on the Palestians to get them to fight?

jesus man.

these are OLD sciences, OLD techniques!

collective punishment, interesting to note that the nazis employed this strategy as well.

if you don't see the difference between 'israel running all terror' (which i've been accused of saying by the stupid on this site) and israel nudging, directing, fractionalizing, using the major resources they have to make sure the palestinians never get real organized resistance, then i'm afraid there's not much i can do for you.

read some books man. seriously. by israelis. it'll BLOW YOUR MIND.

[Azure]

Well Looger, I don't exactly believe everything I read in those books.

Plus, the extremists make up a small percentage of the population, and I think its within Israels best interest to secure peace. HAMAS and Fatah are fighting amongst themselves, how can you blame that on Israel?

I can't wait to see the reaction of the UN once Israel sends troops in to clean up the violence.

[Looger]

let me ask you a question HOZ.

why is saudi arabia tolerated?

they have a lot of oil but let's be honest - so does kuwait, so does iraq, and the US has troops in those countries and they could just take it, so let's put oil aside for a moment.

saudi wahabbist money is responsible for the LION'S SHARE of the capital required to construct the new mosques in western europe, pakistan, and other places around the world with large numbers of disadvantaged disaffected muslim youth. and guess what kind of imams get installed in these mosques? radical ones!

15 of the 19 hijackers on september 11th were saudi.

side note: j. michael springmann, head of the consulate in jeddah saudi arabia, denied visas to 15 of the hijackers and was overruled by the CIA. here's a presentation by him:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...ael+springmann

anyway, back to saudi arabia. they foster more terror worldwide with more money, public and private (that line's pretty blurry there anyway!)than any other mideast country.

but yet, they're our best bud in this 'war on terror'!

got another question for ya.

if this war on terror is so serious, why are 2000 mexicans / central americans sneaking past the border every day? why have funds been de-allocated from border patrol? why aren't they tightening up the border? why are the fences they're building equipped with drainage ditches underneath every mile that you can walk upright under? why are border guards going to jail for shooting mexican drug dealers in the ass?

what the hell has to happen before you figure this out???

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well Looger, I don't exactly believe everything I read in those books.

fair enough. better ignore the levon affair, revelations regarding abu nidal, and the dozens / hundreds of times mossad-controlled extremists have been busted in arab countries. it's not that the books are the source here - they're supplementary proof of ongoing programs that everyone knows are going on.

Originally Posted by Azure

Plus, the extremists make up a small percentage of the population, and I think its within Israels best interest to secure peace. HAMAS and Fatah are fighting amongst themselves, how can you blame that on Israel?

it's in the israeli PEOPLE'S best interests. not the interests of the hard-core zionists, who really don't care all that much so long as the long-term goals are creeped towards. why should we worry aboot blame, when we keep turning a blind eye towards waht israel is doing now? there is plenty of blame to go around. we should focus on solving the problem - and that means getting israel OUT of the lives of palestinians.

what an odd sight in haifa harbour it must have been, that swastika-laden passenger liner with adolph eichmann delivering jewish people into palestine. why indeed did the british government stop those ships? who put that pressure on them?

the hard-core zionist leadership has always made decisions that negatively affect the short-term safety of the people they're supposed to be shepherding, in the interests of the long-term.

peace with the palestinians would make life safer for the common israeli, but all those refugees returning and all that farmland given back from the settlements wouldn't exactly be helping the reconstruction of greater judea now, would it...?

Originally Posted by Azure

I can't wait to see the reaction of the UN once Israel sends troops in to clean up the violence.

it's always amusing.

[Azure]

15 of the 19 were Saudi, but 19 of the 19 were all schooled in Wahhabi mosques.

There is a saying...not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Wahabbists.

So I echo your sentiments Looger, whats up with SA?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Looger

fair enough. better ignore the levon affair, revelations regarding abu nidal, and the dozens / hundreds of times mossad-controlled extremists have been busted in arab countries. it's not that the books are the source here - they're supplementary proof of ongoing programs that everyone knows are going on.

Who said anything about ignoring them?

Everyone knows what the Mossad does, they make freakin' movies about them already.

Oh, BTW, did you know 'someone' assassinated a Iranian nuclear scientist not that long ago?

it's in the israeli PEOPLE'S best interests. not the interests of the hard-core zionists, who really don't care all that much so long as the long-term goals are creeped towards.

Like I said, those hard core Zionists, just like the hard-core Islamics, make up a small percentage of the population.

But they do make the biggest noise.

it's always amusing.

Of course.