Minneapolis PD Suffocate Unarmed Black Man Who Later Dies in Hospital

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

Aren’t positive stereotypes considered racist?

I can admit I’m probably wrong here, semantically. Let’s just hope the guy got home and threw out the shirt.

Like literally everything, context is important. A positive stereotype based on something valid, like "a Black person knows more about the Black experience than a White person" is in no way racist. That's how you SHOULD be thinking. The conversation around Black Lives Matter is directly related to that.

A positive stereotype like "Asians are good at math" or "Gays are fashionable" are not valid, because your race or sexuality is not connected to your ability to learn algebra or make jeans and a t-shirt look like a million bucks. They have negative implications, because you're then setting a standard which someone shouldn't have to live up to just because of how they're born, and you're also making the negative implication that other races aren't as good at math, or that straight people can't choose the right pair of jeans to save their life.

My point is just to use context and use "racism" carefully, or you're going to end up in a scenario where it has no power and no meaning at all. If you're not talking to your Black friends or neighbours about Black issues because it might be "racist" to ask, you've lost the plot entirely.

[Manhattanboy]

This is insane. So Stockell Day, a private citizen, gets fired from his law firm and the board of Telus for suggesting that Canada might not necessarily suffer from systemic racism. The horror. Meanwhile the prime minister and the head of the RCMP can’t agree on what the term even means.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Because...?

Because it is used as a derogatory term there.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Because it is used as a derogatory term there.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/...surprised%20to,'

NotSureIfSerious.jpg

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

NotSureIfSerious.jpg

Oh, I removed the source. I saw it was spiracle.

Someone posted on here before that "Canadian" is used as a word for black person in Australia, but I can't find a source so never mind.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Oh, I removed the source. I saw it was spiracle.

Someone posted on here before that "Canadian" is used as a word for black person in Australia, but I can't find a source so never mind.

Blimey.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This is insane. So Stockell Day, a private citizen, gets fired from his law firm and the board of Telus for suggesting that Canada might not necessarily suffer from systemic racism. The horror. Meanwhile the prime minister and the head of the RCMP can’t agree on what the term even means.

I believe he made a public statement on television that both systemic racism does not exist and he equated racism to being teased for wearing glasses. Super smart thing to do right now and you’re not actually surprised he was removed are you?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This is insane. So Stockell Day, a private citizen, gets fired from his law firm and the board of Telus for suggesting that Canada might not necessarily suffer from systemic racism. The horror. Meanwhile the prime minister and the head of the RCMP can’t agree on what the term even means.

So you have an issue with a private company exercising it's right to hold it's employees to a code of conduct that said employee likely signed off on?

Why do you hate private enterprise and the right for employers to control their business the way they see fit?

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Like literally everything, context is important. A positive stereotype based on something valid, like "a Black person knows more about the Black experience than a White person" is in no way racist. That's how you SHOULD be thinking. The conversation around Black Lives Matter is directly related to that.

A positive stereotype like "Asians are good at math" or "Gays are fashionable" are not valid, because your race or sexuality is not connected to your ability to learn algebra or make jeans and a t-shirt look like a million bucks. They have negative implications, because you're then setting a standard which someone shouldn't have to live up to just because of how they're born, and you're also making the negative implication that other races aren't as good at math, or that straight people can't choose the right pair of jeans to save their life.

My point is just to use context and use "racism" carefully, or you're going to end up in a scenario where it has no power and no meaning at all. If you're not talking to your Black friends or neighbours about Black issues because it might be "racist" to ask, you've lost the plot entirely.

Isn’t assuming some wants to, or is able to, talk about Black Lives Matter “setting a standard which someone shouldn't have to live up to just because of how they're born”? I have listened to as many Black voices as I can, and will continue to, because it’s important for pasty white guys like me to understand their experience, but only if they start the conversation. If someone is trying to go about their day they don’t need me coming up to them to get their take. Or maybe that’s just my social anxiety talking.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This is insane. So Stockell Day, a private citizen, gets fired from his law firm and the board of Telus for suggesting that Canada might not necessarily suffer from systemic racism. The horror. Meanwhile the prime minister and the head of the RCMP can’t agree on what the term even means.

Hmmm.

We have to recognize that our system is not perfect in Canada. Yes, there's a few idiot racists hanging around but Canada is not a racist country and most Canadians are not racist. And our system, that always needs to be improved, is not systemically racist.

Should I have gone through school and been mocked because I had glasses and was called four-eyes and because of the occupation of my parents? Should I have been mocked for all that? No, of course not. But are Canadians largely and in majority racist? No, we are not.

I see you've softened his position considerably to make your point. Any reason, in particular?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

So, here's the thing. I don't have a problem with him or anyone else saying that Canada is not a racist country. I agree with that. I certainly don't agree with the view that the system isn't systemically racist - the outcomes for aboriginal people strongly suggest that it is, although there are a lot of factors influencing those outcomes. I just don't think it should be a firing offense to say that.

Anyway, they can fire him if they want I guess. Obviously the smart thing to do at this point if you want to push back on any discussion about racism and its effects is, just keep your mouth shut.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Because it is used as a derogatory term there.

It is common in parts of the United States to call Black people Canadians. I was told it was code for white people to talk about Black people without getting in trouble.

[CliffFletcher]

Are there non-racist countries that Canada can use as a model for systemic improvement?

If there are no non-racist countries, shouldn't we be framing the problem in terms of all humans and all societies being racist?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

So, here's the thing. I don't have a problem with him or anyone else saying that Canada is not a racist country. I agree with that. I certainly don't agree with the view that the system isn't systemically racist - the outcomes for aboriginal people strongly suggest that it is, although there are a lot of factors influencing those outcomes.

Anyway, they can fire him if they want I guess. Obviously the smart thing to do at this point if you want to push back on any discussion about racism and its effects is, just keep your mouth shut.

To be honest at this point making a comment being a contrarian on the race issues is fireable just because it shows a lack of common sense and inability to make wise decisions.

That said - the firings are a way for companies to signal they are taking the issue serious. Meaningless in the long run unless they actually address any systematic issues within their own company.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

Isn’t assuming some wants to, or is able to, talk about Black Lives Matter “setting a standard which someone shouldn't have to live up to just because of how they're born”? I have listened to as many Black voices as I can, and will continue to, because it’s important for pasty white guys like me to understand their experience, but only if they start the conversation. If someone is trying to go about their day they don’t need me coming up to them to get their take. Or maybe that’s just my social anxiety talking.

We're going in circles on a hypothetical that never even happened here, so I'll just say this. Read my posts, use your best judgement, just use the word "racism" purposefully. If you have to go seven layers deep into a logic argument to figure out if something some well-intentioned person did might be kinda racist, you're wasting energy better spent on something positive. If you, as a White person, are arguing that something was kinda racist, even when the Black person in the actual situation says "definitely not!" and you're doing gymnastics to get there, who is that really for?

And speaking just for me, if someone asks genuinely about my take on an issue because my sexuality is relevant to the issue, that's actually nice, even if I have nothing to say. I'm not sitting around thinking "kind of homophobic to be honest!" I mean the weirdest part is randomly bringing strangers into conversation. That's weird, not racist or homophobic or whatever lol.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

It is common in parts of the United States to call Black people Canadians. I was told it was code for white people to talk about Black people without getting in trouble.

It's specifically used as a racist code-word in the US restaurant industry. Many servers don't want to wait on tables with black customers because they are racially stereotyped as being bad tippers. They'd rather be assigned to a table of white people, and white men in particular, because they're stereotyped as being better tippers. Canadians are also perceived as being poor tippers because the standard Canadian tip (15-18%) is less than the standard American tip (20-25%), and many Canadian travelers are unaware of this cultural difference. Wait staff can't come out and say that they don't want to serve black customers, so they'll describe the table as being a group of "Canadians" instead. It's understood in the industry what they really mean.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hmmm.



I see you've softened his position considerably to make your point. Any reason, in particular?

Agreed, I should have been more careful. He did more than make a suggestion; his view was expressed as a statement.

OK. My problem is with the term. There is no general consensus (let alone legal definition) of what the phrase even means.

Certainly I agree with the rights of private corporations, particularly with respect to their directors and senior management, who must set an example.

Racism exists in Canada, that is undeniable. To generalize that the country is inherently racist? That's debatable. To be fired for expressing a view that its not? I suppose that could be a breach of the Telus code of conduct.

Were his comments hate speech? Racist per se?

Yes, the examples of his own experience are silly and he could be accused of being tone deaf.

But objectively, should he have been fired?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Agreed, I should have been more careful. He did more than make a suggestion; his view was expressed as a statement.

OK. My problem is with the term. There is no general consensus (let alone legal definition) of what the phrase even means.

Certainly I agree with the rights of private corporations, particularly with respect to their directors and senior management, who must set an example.

Racism exists in Canada, that is undeniable. To generalize that the country is inherently racist? That's debatable. To be fired for expressing a view that its not? I suppose that could be a breach of the Telus code of conduct.

Were his comments hate speech? Racist per se?

Yes, his own experience was silly and he could be accused of being tone deaf.

But objectively, should he have been fired?

I think his likely-forced resignations (firing, sure) were regarding his assertion that systemic racism does not exist in Canada. Which, of course it does. Even the hardline Conservative supporters on this site have admitted as much. It's not much of a debate anymore (but what to do about it definitely is).

The problem isn't that he was wrong. The more important part of it is, if you're a company who believes that systemic racism exists or at very least wants to be seen as believing as it does, that you "care" and that you're "doing something about it" whether that's true or not, you cannot have someone on your board speaking out on issues that are inconsistent with your company's values.

That's just smart business.

If a random guy working at a Telus store says it, he probably doesn't get fired. But being on the board is an entirely different situation in the way you represent the company as a whole.

[GirlySports]

Canada is not systematically a racist country, in fact it bends over backwards to be welcoming. I've been involved in many immigrant agencies and the amount of services available is abundant. Free English classes, free job training, free childcare, only available to non-citizens. Churches and libraries run classes for free.


Now, are there business areas that discriminate? Sure. But to say Canada as a whole is systemically racist is to undermine the work of many people IN THE SYSTEM!

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Canada is not systematically a racist country, in fact it bends over backwards to be welcoming. I've been involved in many immigrant agencies and the amount of services available is abundant. Free English classes, free job training, free childcare, only available to non-citizens. Churches and libraries run classes for free.


To say Canada is systemically racist is to undermine the work of many people IN THE SYSTEM!

Cool, cool. Now describe the experience of indigenous Canadians.