26 y.o. New Brunswick woman shot and killed by Police

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I typed it into Google. Boom!

https://amp-scroll-in.cdn.ampproject...eople-in-turku

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

Your linked article reads as follows, which is obviously not even close to shotting a woman dead with five shots.

The police have shot one man in the leg who was suspected of stabbing people, according to BBC. He was later taken into custody

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by metallicat

Sorry, but if this happens:



you're getting shot. Period. You can have less lethal like a taser on scene but if someone is threatening police with a knife and they're in range to strike that is a lethal encounter and it will rightfully so be met with a lethal response.

She wasn't killed because police were there for a wellness check, she was killed because of the knife. Full stop. Now if the argument is you don't believe the police due to the current climate then I'll grant you that and we can wait for the independent investigation to take place. But if what the police say happened is actually what happened then this appears to be a good shot.

Are Canadian cops allowed to enter apartments against the will of inhabitants when no immediate crime is happening? Can a police officer walk into a living room, shot a woman who lives there with 5 years old daughter and get acquitted because he said she was lethally threatening him with a knife? And there was no actual crime happening at the scene at the first place.

Where I come from, if you walk into someone's living room and shot the person who lives there, you go to jail no matter if you are cop and no matter what you say in your defense. If you shot an intruder, that's another story, but if you walk in and shot the person who lives there, you go to jail no matter what. There's just no defense for that. Otherwise you essentially allow policemen to kill anyone at will.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

What a tragedy. We’ll never know what happened but clearly something went very wrong for the police to kill someone they were supposed to be protecting.

My first thought is there needs to be improved training towards lethal force. Maybe a knife is justifiable but not in every case. My second thought is that situations like these are why there is a low level of trust towards police. Maybe the officer is telling the truth but with no body cams and an attitude of police unions sticking with their own we will never know. There needs to be some accountability to grow trust. .

Finally I was reminded of the time my house was broken into when I was 13 and I arrived home from school through the back door just as the police arrived through the front. I found myself face to face with a big cop pointing a gun at me yelling “who are you!” Through almost ####ting my pants I managed to meekly let out a “I live here”. It was probably the scariest moment of my life and I’m glad the officer, despite having his gun ready, took the time to visually and verbally confirm I wasn’t a threat. I’ve always wondered though if this would have played out differently if I looked scarier than a bean pole white kid, it happened at night, or if I was holding something like a water gun or baseball bat.

Yeah, this is what most likely happened. The cops mistook the woman for an intruder. It sure didn't help that she was not aware that her boyfriend called the cops in and hence was not expecting any cops. Quite contrary - she was there ready to defend herself, allegedly holding a knife. Tragic misunderstanding / miscommunication.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Comments like this, from a federal minister no less, don't add any sort of value. Pretty clear that his mind is made up that this is a case of police violence against an indigenous person and he even admits he doesn't know how any of it happened, but has decided to make a judgement anyways. Curious how his first reaction to being told one of the people he represents was killed is to assume it's a joke.

He assumed it's a joke that a policeman who was sent to perform a wellness check on the woman ended up shooting her dead. It does sound like some kind of a lame joke.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Doesn’t really have any bearing, police shoot until the threat is gone. One round or a full mag, the stopping point is when there is no more threat presented.

So, she was still a threat after first four shots?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I typed it into Google. Boom!

https://amp-scroll-in.cdn.ampproject...eople-in-turku

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

And thank you for getting it so wrong, so I can give a perfect counter-example. (It's kinda funny that you didn't even read the article :P )

This guy was a literal crazy person running around stabbing people in the city center. The Finnish police caught him alive. Yes they used a gun, they shot him, but they didn't kill him. They didn't put five bullets at center mass, they shot once, in the leg.

Again, funny how that goes. In one place the emphasis is on the police not dying. In another the emphasis is on the police avoiding killing anyone, even a crazy dangerous POC, even when it might be justified.

This is BTW one of the best known cases in Finnish recent history, as the whole thing was huge at the time. The picture below also won the extremely prestigious "news picture of the year" award in Finland.



This quote is from the awarding committee:

"The winning picture condenses the years most important news event directly and without aestheticization. The picture is peaceful and speaks of how the police work in an unusual situation."

The person shot was BTW a muslim refugee. It's one of the main reasons why this became huge news. And I would agree with the awarding committee. That picture says a hell of a lot about the Finnish police.

The cop in the picture looks more like a father-figure taking care of someone than a cop keeping an eye on crazed presumed terrorist. The Finnish police force is far from perfect, but in that moment it was really easy to be proud of what we have. It was just phenomenal work. They were on the scene really fast and brought the stabber down really quickly, without killing him. One well-placed shot, nothing more.

If our police can be like this, why can't yours?

[Pointman]

There was a similar incident in USA last October.

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/10...ck-woman-home/

The officer was indicted for murder even though the woman was apparently pointing a handgun towards the window, scared of the noises policeman made in the garden. Much like in Moore's story, the killed woman was not expecting cops to come and cops failed to announce themselves as such.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1105916

Never mind UK or Finland, even in Texas it's a murder.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

ran at an officer with a knife? that sounds like a situation where that level of force would be justifiable

Some comments from qualified professionals from the aforementioned Texas case article :

"Officials said the officer did not announce himself as law enforcement prior to giving orders or shooting the woman. They said that will be addressed in their investigation."

"Had the officer not resigned, I would have fired him for violations for several policies, including our use of force policy, our de-escalation policy and unprofessional conduct," Police Chief Ed Kraus told reporters.

I understand Canada and US are not the same country, but going by closest similar case I could find, the officer was supposed to announce himself as a law enforcement. Failure to do so made Moore - who was not expecting cops - to draw weapon in self-defense. Unless some evidence comes forward that shows substantial differences between Moore's case and Fort Worth case, I stand by opinion that officer is guilty of murder.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Itse

This guy was a literal crazy person running around stabbing people in the city center. The Finnish police caught him alive. Yes they used a gun, they shot him, but they didn't kill him. They didn't put five bullets at center mass, they shot once, in the leg.

Have you ever shot a handgun? It is very hard to shoot someone in the leg, nevermind adding in the stress and adrenalini in the situation.

Lethal force is a tool police are taught strict rules for use and when the decision to use it is made it is to be done as taught or there are consequences.

Once the decision is made it is shoot centre mass til the threat is over. 5 shots takes a couple seconds. When you look down the sights of a handgun you can not see your target, they are a blur, hence shooting centre mass.

I wish everyone who said shoot a leg would go to a range and play with a gun for a day. I've done shooting with the police during a famil at their range and on my farm with friends. It's not what you think it is.

I will concede some of these situations can be handled much better, but the resources aren't there yet. When 911 gets the call for someone with a knife there's no time to call in counsellers and others who can talk someone down. People can't stand the taxes and police budgets we already have imagine adding in all the support staff to have critical incident responders on shift as well.

I'd like to see better training for officers, I know a lot of good ones, but the more education the better.

Sorry for rambling, lots of good comments on this thread but also lots of people making judgement of a situation we know very little about.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Are Canadian cops allowed to enter apartments against the will of inhabitants when no immediate crime is happening? Can a police officer walk into a living room, shot a woman who lives there with 5 years old daughter and get acquitted because he said she was lethally threatening him with a knife? And there was no actual crime happening at the scene at the first place.

Where I come from, if you walk into someone's living room and shot the person who lives there, you go to jail no matter if you are cop and no matter what you say in your defense. If you shot an intruder, that's another story, but if you walk in and shot the person who lives there, you go to jail no matter what. There's just no defense for that. Otherwise you essentially allow policemen to kill anyone at will.

It all depends on the situation.

https://www.cleo.on.ca/en/publicatio...-enter-my-home

[speede5]

Also this is the kind of ammo police use, it is designed to do maximum lethal damage and not to just incapacitate someone. Lethal force is exactly that. Lethal.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by speede5

Have you ever shot a handgun? It is very hard to shoot someone in the leg, nevermind adding in the stress and adrenalini in the situation.

Lethal force is a tool police are taught strict rules for use and when the decision to use it is made it is to be done as taught or there are consequences.

Once the decision is made it is shoot centre mass til the threat is over. 5 shots takes a couple seconds. When you look down the sights of a handgun you can not see your target, they are a blur, hence shooting centre mass.

I wish everyone who said shoot a leg would go to a range and play with a gun for a day. I've done shooting with the police during a famil at their range and on my farm with friends. It's not what you think it is.

I will concede some of these situations can be handled much better, but the resources aren't there yet. When 911 gets the call for someone with a knife there's no time to call in counsellers and others who can talk someone down. People can't stand the taxes and police budgets we already have imagine adding in all the support staff to have critical incident responders on shift as well.

I'd like to see better training for officers, I know a lot of good ones, but the more education the better.

Sorry for rambling, lots of good comments on this thread but also lots of people making judgement of a situation we know very little about.

What are you talking about?

You find it hard to aim a gun at the range, so cops shouldn’t be expected to be better? That’s your response to Finnish police actually being better?

You’re missing the point on lethal force. If police are taught strict rules for use, those rules are too relaxed in Canada and (especially) the US, that’s the point people are making.

As far as the 911 call, it was for a welfare check, not someone running around with a knife. If that’s not the situation to bring in people actually trained to help, what is?

I agree that people are making some pretty strong assumptions about a situation we don’t know everything about (and never will). But some people are also relying on the false narrative that cops did what’s right, or what they had to do, or the only thing they could do, while many of us are trying to point out that North America’s version of “right, necessary, the only option” isn’t any of those things. If you want to gloss over how Finnish police do it, or U.K. police, or one of the many other police forces that do it better, that’s fine. But it CAN be done better, and the resources are there, they’re just used to make the police tougher and stronger, not better at protecting life.

[afc wimbledon]

If you want to kill a cop you pick up a gun, if you want to be killed by a cop you pick up a knife, its really pretty simple, knife wielding suspects don't kill cops, pretty much ever in any jurisdiction, as a statistical threat it is all but non existent, cars are massively more of a threat to a cop.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If you want to kill a cop you pick up a gun, if you want to be killed by a cop you pick up a knife, its really pretty simple, knife wielding suspects don't kill cops, pretty much ever in any jurisdiction, as a statistical threat it is all but non existent, cars are massively more of a threat to a cop.

Off the top of my head I can think of one police officer in Ottawa who was stabbed and killed several years ago. I’m sure there are more if I were to look into it further. Point being, it may be rare but it can and does happen.

[Zulu29]

Also, police in Canada utilize time/space/de-escalation whenever possible. In a dynamic situation this is not always possible. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...aterfront/amp/

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by speede5

Also this is the kind of ammo police use, it is designed to do maximum lethal damage and not to just incapacitate someone. Lethal force is exactly that. Lethal.

If you’re referring to hollow points, someone explained in one of the gun threads that they are more of a safety device as they won’t exit the target and potentially strike another. The primary purpose isn’t maximum damage, as I had previously thought as well.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My foster kids, kids I have worked with in Jail, group homes, rehabs, etc etc, by my guess I have been threatened by knife wielding kids or adults about 20 to 30 times over my life, not one of them ever actually wanted to stab me, they were all distraught and I just kept my distance and talked to them until the police arrived, at times that was quick, sometimes it took quite a while, I have had one occasion the cops refused to attend, was told 'its your problem, call us if he stabs someone' that was a long night.

As to why people die by stabbing, they die because they cant or wont run away, wives, girlfriends etc mostly.

Having seen someone die from a stab wound, I think that your view is overly simplistic. Trust me, people die from stab wounds, usually related to hypovolemic shock, but also from infectious processes, especially if the stab wound is to the abdomen. But moreover a stab wound can cause other issues including lifelong pain, internal organ damage (a stab wound to the liver is pretty bad), and a whole host of other issues. Now obviously everyone would prefer not to be stabbed but I think with your experiences you have somehow become numb or obvious to the realities of stab/blade wounds.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Off the top of my head I can think of one police officer in Ottawa who was stabbed and killed several years ago. I’m sure there are more if I were to look into it further. Point being, it may be rare but it can and does happen.

well done as I couldn't find a thing, that was 2009, so maybe once a decade, the closest to stats I could find is that 11 police officers have been killed by car or stabbing since 1970, and US stats show that cars are far more dangerous to the police than knifes so my guess is 3 or 4 police have been stabbed to death in half a century, now that isn't insignificant but it also doesn't justify killing hundreds of civilians who had knives over that period, the threat just doesn't justify the responce

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

not to the police they are not, statistically, mostly because the police don't get close enough to be stabbed.
My experience is almost all people with knives are more interested in hurting themselves than anyone else

If you are doing a wellness check where you knock on a door, how do you maintain distance when someone opens the door.

Sure that is your experience but the problem is that the longer you interact with people, the increase in the odds that you will encounter someone who does want to harm someone else.

Plus I still think that the missing aspect in these situations is drugs, they can make someone act incredibly irrational and erratically.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Having seen someone die from a stab wound, I think that your view is overly simplistic. Trust me, people die from stab wounds, usually related to hypovolemic shock, but also from infectious processes, especially if the stab wound is to the abdomen. But moreover a stab wound can cause other issues including lifelong pain, internal organ damage (a stab wound to the liver is pretty bad), and a whole host of other issues. Now obviously everyone would prefer not to be stabbed but I think with your experiences you have somehow become numb or obvious to the realities of stab/blade wounds.

two points, I'm not downplaying being stabbed, I'm just pointing for the police it is incredibly rare they get stabbed, even rarer they die, since the 90's they wear body armour so it has become even less of a risk.

What I am asking everyone to do is balance the incredibly rare occasions policemen are hurt against the hundreds of citizens they kill because they have knives over the decades, what you and the others, probably unintentionally are saying is its ok to kill a mentally ill or distraught person rather than chance a policemen getting a minor injury because that's the actual risk here