[Update: Approved] First Leg of the Green Line LRT

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Torture

Cause Macleod and Crowchild are such a dream to drive?

When the Crowchild portion of my commute is (was?) northbound from 50th Ave SW exiting to 9 Ave SW, yeah, I should say so.

[getbak]

From the Herald in 1977...

Spoiler!

"LRT is an inflexible, fixed-rail system that is unsuited to the travel habits of Calgarians."

"The money earmarked for LRT could be spent more effectively on an advanced express bus system, operating in exclusive bus lanes and not competing with cars."



Wow, can you believe people used to believe that sort of thing?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by getbak

From the Herald in 1977...

Spoiler!

"LRT is an inflexible, fixed-rail system that is unsuited to the travel habits of Calgarians."

"The money earmarked for LRT could be spent more effectively on an advanced express bus system, operating in exclusive bus lanes and not competing with cars."



Wow, can you believe people used to believe that sort of thing?

Just goes to show that no matter how beneficial it ultimately ends up being in the future (and studies likely indicating it would be at the time), there will be those that will oppose it during the pre-development stages.

[accord1999]

The difference in this case is that the Green Line was popular at the beginning; it's just only after the budget overruns that led to the severe cutting of the line in 2017 and now the change from a full tunnel through the core to partial shallow tunnels, bridge and surfacing running on Centre Street did opposition appear.

If the Green Line still looked like this (or even somewhat close to it), there wouldn't be any problems.

[Wormius]

Just kinda curious, why would anybody be so bent out of shape about the LRT that they would actively lobby against it? Surely the tax burden isn’t that substantial per person. Is there an industry that would die or lose business if this is built? The opposition doesn’t make sense.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Just kinda curious, why would anybody be so bent out of shape about the LRT that they would actively lobby against it? Surely the tax burden isn’t that substantial per person. Is there an industry that would die or lose business if this is built? The opposition doesn’t make sense.

I think because it’s not accomplishing the goals it set out to. It doesn’t service the North or the South West. So given a finite amount of funding the current plan does not appear to service the most people possible.

[Fuzz]

We should just run a Zeplin service from the deep south and far north to downtown.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think because it’s not accomplishing the goals it set out to. It doesn’t service the North or the South West. So given a finite amount of funding the current plan does not appear to service the most people possible.

I have no idea about south west ridership, but the North line would service a lot of people currently suffering from slow bus service that gets slower and more unreliable in winter months.

But even if it’s not 100% satisfactory, I am still not seeing why somebody would be *that* opposed to it to start lobbying against it to the extent that you need funds to do it.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I have no idea about south west ridership, but the North line would service a lot of people currently suffering from slow bus service that gets slower and more unreliable in winter months.

Only if the line went more north; at 16th Ave CT doesn't expect many transfer and still expects to run all of the existing bus routes into downtown even after Stage 1 opens.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Only if the line went more north; at 16th Ave CT doesn't expect many transfer and still expects to run all of the existing bus routes into downtown even after Stage 1 opens.

Right, but it's a lot easier to get funding to go north once you've tunneled through downtown and gotten over the river.

If they start now, Stage 1 isn't finished until 2027 so that's 7 years to find funding to go further north and acquire the land required, whether that's one station at a time or multiple. This is essentially the same way they built the red line.

[Nufy]

Is there a bankrupt ski hill anywhere that we can but a used tram system from ??

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Just goes to show that no matter how beneficial it ultimately ends up being in the future (and studies likely indicating it would be at the time), there will be those that will oppose it during the pre-development stages.

The LRT doesn't really service a large part of the city and is really only effective at getting people to and from downtown.

Maybe if they had adopted BRT in 1977 Calgary would have a more efficient bus network that can get you around the city.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Torture

Right, but it's a lot easier to get funding to go north once you've tunneled through downtown and gotten over the river.

If they start now, Stage 1 isn't finished until 2027 so that's 7 years to find funding to go further north and acquire the land required, whether that's one station at a time or multiple. This is essentially the same way they built the red line.

My concern is that the Green Line received an unprecedented amount of funding on the expectation that it was going to be enough to build the entire line in one stage. Even the worse case scenarios had always considered Beddington-Shepard to be the core; not 16th Avenue. It may be a while before Calgary gets it turn again at billion dollar+ transit funding. The City itself is going to take till 2044 until it pays off its share of Stage 1 capital and financing costs.

The Red Line was built in stages because it got much less money (even after inflation or purchasing power adjustment). Another potential scenario would be the NE and West LRT, with a 27 year difference in opening dates.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

The LRT doesn't really service a large part of the city and is really only effective at getting people to and from downtown.

Maybe if they had adopted BRT in 1977 Calgary would have a more efficient bus network that can get you around the city.

Just curious, are there any cities that would be good examples of following that sort of strategy?

Ottawa is one city I can think of that did it. In the early 80s, Ottawa opened their Transitway, which was a network of dedicated busways and transit priority lanes to improve movement into and through downtown, similar to 7th Avenue for the C-Train in Calgary.


Here are the latest stats I could find for each system (Calgary's are 2 years more recent):

• http://www.calgarytransit.com/about-...res/statistics
• https://www.octranspo.com/en/about-us/stats/

For Calgary Transit, the annual ridership is 106.5 million individual trips, with an average trip length of 14.7km. For OC Transpo, it's 94.4 million trips and an average trip length of 10km.

Despite Calgary's much more-extensive LRT system, Calgary Transit also has 20 more total bus routes than Ottawa (169 compared to 149). Calgary also has more bus shelters and stops with benches.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by getbak

Just curious, are there any cities that would be good examples of following that sort of strategy?

Ottawa is one city I can think of that did it. In the early 80s, Ottawa opened their Transitway, which was a network of dedicated busways and transit priority lanes to improve movement into and through downtown, similar to 7th Avenue for the C-Train in Calgary.


Here are the latest stats I could find for each system (Calgary's are 2 years more recent):

• http://www.calgarytransit.com/about-...res/statistics
• https://www.octranspo.com/en/about-us/stats/

For Calgary Transit, the annual ridership is 106.5 million individual trips, with an average trip length of 14.7km. For OC Transpo, it's 94.4 million trips and an average trip length of 10km.

Despite Calgary's much more-extensive LRT system, Calgary Transit also has 20 more total bus routes than Ottawa (169 compared to 149). Calgary also has more bus shelters and stops with benches.

It is interesting to compare the different approaches and outcomes of Ottawa/Edmonton/Calgary. I haven't been able to find contemporary numbers, but it seems Calgary has managed to deliver more services for less money (of course it's possible there are some discrepancies in detailed accounting).

That said, past decisions do not necessarily serve any purpose in evaluating today's plans. I've posted a few times opinion pieces authored by past transit managers (responsible for many of the good decisions we can laud compared to our competitor cities) who are arguing that SE BRT is a far more sensible solution for that route.

[iggypop]

I don't understand the city's updated alignment map, between 16 Ave N and 4 St SE. Is this map suggesting the line will run at-grade from 16 Ave N to 6 Ave S, and the line is no longer running from 16 Ave N to 2 Ave SW?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by iggypop

I don't understand the city's updated alignment map, between 16 Ave N and 4 St SE. Is this map suggesting the line will run at-grade from 16 Ave N to 6 Ave S, and the line is no longer running from 16 Ave N to 2 Ave SW?

I believe the dark grey line represents the North Central BRT, which already exists, but will be enhanced in some way during the first phase of the Green Line.

The green line on the map represents the current proposed alignment for the Green Line LRT from Shepard to 16th Ave N. The dotted line represents the area that will be underground through downtown.

[iggypop]

Originally Posted by getbak

I believe the dark grey line represents the North Central BRT, which already exists, but will be enhanced in some way during the first phase of the Green Line.

The green line on the map represents the current proposed alignment for the Green Line LRT from Shepard to 16th Ave N. The dotted line represents the area that will be underground through downtown.

Thanks, yes I think you're right. This presentation confirms that. So the original tunnel and latest bridge route are slightly different, which is a unclear in the larger map.

[getbak]

After a lengthy public hearing and debate, the Green Line committee has voted to forward the recommendations for the revised Green Line alignment to Council for a vote on June 15.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1267954303442042880

https://twitter.com/user/status/1267954602370117632

Council will again debate the recommendations on June 15.

[Faust]

Calgary city councillor apologizes for controversial freedom of speech comment:

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-c...ment-1.4965010