[Update: Approved] First Leg of the Green Line LRT

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It doesn't switch at all. It's still a need, but now it also carries a benefit of much needed stimulus to the local economy for construction.

FWIW, the original C-Train lines were also built during a major recession. If we applied that thinking then, It is quite possible we'd have NO LRT system at all today rather than one of the busiest in North America.

However a large reason it’s an LRT and not a BRT was that federal dollars required it to be one.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

How is this project funding still even being entertained?

The funding from the Province and Canada is still in place (though the Provincial payout is now more backloaded), the City's probably afraid that if they don't use it, they'll lose it. And the City's share of the costs ($52M/year for capital and $23.7M/year for financing) has already been penciled into the budget till 2044.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

How is this project funding still even being entertained? I really wanted this line as I live in the SE, but now I don't see how this line can be viable. We need to revisit if we need another downtown feeder during the next 10 years, and with massive government debts coming up, is this the best use of money? Are costs expected to decrease at all in the new economy we'll be heading into?

Because the City is thinking longer term than the current pandemic.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Torture

Because the City is thinking longer term than the current pandemic.

But not far enough to realize that self driving cars will be here soon and a BRT could probably be more effective and less expensive.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Self-driving cars doesn't solve parking though. And I think it will be quite some time until that critical mass is achieved to plan around it.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

But not far enough to realize that self driving cars will be here soon and a BRT could probably be more effective and less expensive.

Self driving cars may solve other issues, but they aren’t capable of replacing mass transit. Cars with single occupants take up too much space.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Self-driving cars doesn't solve parking though.

Unless it drives home or out of downtown and parks. Also downtown parking is deliberately constrained. The city could allow more parking downtown if it wanted to (albeit it might take another boom for the required construction to occur).

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Self driving cars may solve other issues, but they aren’t capable of replacing mass transit. Cars with single occupants take up too much space.

Stopping space could be reduced though, so they could at least ease some strain on transit.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Self driving cars may solve other issues, but they aren’t capable of replacing mass transit. Cars with single occupants take up too much space.

True, but it may change the nature of it.

Do we need to run 100 passenger busses 18 hours a day, when they are only used to that capacity for 4 of those hours? Or would efficiencies be achieved by transitioning to a bigger fleet of ~40 passenger AV’s - even more frequency at rush hours (if not all hours), and reduced operating expenses

It’s unlikely to affect train lines with the ridership to justify them, but that probably doesn’t apply to the SE leg (at least until it gets to the communities).

Between O&G and Covid, the demand for transit (especially to downtown) may become very different, too.


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[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

True, but it may change the nature of it.

Do we need to run 100 passenger busses 18 hours a day, when they are only used to that capacity for 4 of those hours? Or would efficiencies be achieved by transitioning to a bigger fleet of ~40 passenger AV’s - even more frequency at rush hours (if not all hours), and reduced operating expenses

It’s unlikely to affect train lines with the ridership to justify them, but that probably doesn’t apply to the SE leg (at least until it gets to the communities).

Between O&G and Covid, the demand for transit (especially to downtown) may become very different, too.


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The Green line connects a lot of things that aren’t downtown too.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

But not far enough to realize that self driving cars will be here soon and a BRT could probably be more effective and less expensive.

Not everyone can afford a car that they have to drive, never mind one that drives itself.

Also, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have much faith in a city council that said "you know what, we're not going to do anything, let's just wait for self driving cars, they'll fix all our problems for us." I mean, why do anything today when future technologies will solve all our problems?

P.S. Self Driving cars are supposed to be here...when exactly? The Guardian predicted we'd all be in self driving cars by 2015. Business Insider predicted 2020, and I don't see many of them on the road. We're just supposed to wait I suppose?

A year ago, Detroit and Silicon Valley had visions of putting thousands of self-driving taxis on the road in 2019, ushering in an age of driverless cars.

Most of those cars have yet to arrive — and it is likely to be years before they do. Several carmakers and technology companies have concluded that making autonomous vehicles is going to be harder, slower and costlier than they thought.

“We overestimated the arrival of autonomous vehicles,” Ford’s chief executive, Jim Hackett, said at the Detroit Economic Club in April.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/b...mous-cars.html


Hmm. Seems like a good bet. Cancel the Green Line, let's put all the money into TSLA instead!

[Lubicon]

The addition of the 9th Avenue North station is welcomed, it would be a mistake not to have one. The other recommended change I really like is to the portal where the line emerges from underground at Second Ave. Looks like they have shifted it slightly west and slightly north, result being the line is not on the street anymore and not quite as obtrusive as it exits the ground. I really like this change.

[DoubleF]

I'm under the assumption that self driving will pop up first in large scale commercial applications before usage by individuals. Something akin to a bus route and a train line sort of thing. You could have autonomous vehicles go back and forth between a warehouse and a retail location for instance (ie: Big Box retail), semis or a bus route/tram. What's also interesting is that with the way that autonomous vehicles can be programmed to behave, you could have them connect to one another and move in tandem like extra cars on a train. Semi's could be kinda replaced or enhanced in this manner as well. For instance, self driving to a certain extent with a human operator dealing with the more delicate stretches of the driving and/or autonomous trailers that could connect or lengthen or shorten for certain jobs. The self driving of the trailers would mainly be be maneuvering for connection and re-connection purposes, not truly drive around on its own. This same set up would allow an extension to be added to a bus intermittently for something like rush hour, while also allowing the bus to shorten during non-peak times (ie: Short bus).

[timun]

"Self-driving cars" is a silly idea that only gullible people believe will be a panacea. We still have morning and afternoon rushes when people go to and from work, and self-driving cars will solve nothing about that. Self-driving cars take up as much space as regular cars, you still have to park them somewhere when they're not in use, and our road capacity will still be the limiting factor.

Originally Posted by SebC

Unless it drives home or out of downtown and parks. Also downtown parking is deliberately constrained. The city could allow more parking downtown if it wanted to (albeit it might take another boom for the required construction to occur).

This is precisely why it's preposterous to think self-driving cars will appreciably improve traffic. "Unless it drives home or out of downtown and parks" itself? Congrats, you doubled the traffic as self-driving cars bring their owners to work and drive themselves home, and then do the same thing in the afternoon to fetch their owners and bring them home.

Parking downtown is deliberately constrained because our road network is constrained. It's about encouraging people to take another mode of transportation because we can't afford to keep expanding our roads to accommodate more and more vehicular traffic. It takes up too much physical space and it costs a fortune.

[TorqueDog]

Man, that Centre St. stuff is making our decision to buy a house in the SW look like a slam dunk win now.

[morgin]

It may be difficult to fully predict how autonomous driving technology will actually be utilized, but the reality is that it will be utilized. It’s getting closer every year. There are really no “it would work but we are missing technology X” aspect. The tech is there, now it’s just about rolling it out incrementally and safely and taking advantage of refinements as it goes.

When you are talking about a capital project with a projected 40-50 year lifespan, and the largest single change to transportation since the car itself is in the early stages of being figured out, you don’t go all in on what could be (not will be, but could be) a declining use transportation option that will be the single largest project in the City’s history. I’d rather see safe increments steps. Adopt more of an agile mindset and build and refine as you go.

A dedicated BRT right of way could still utilize autonomous vehicles and technologies if they become prevalent and be adapted for change without committing us to LRT. Once track goes down, you are committed to trains and only trains. Maybe in the future trains really are the best option and the emergence of autonomous vehicles that can drop people at hub stations will make the centre Street lrt make sense without the huge disruption and pressure on existing traffic. Adding trains, taking away lanes, and spending what LRT will cost with all this going on behind the scenes globally is just insane.

[morgin]

And who cares what conditions the feds put on the money. Go back and tell them it’s BRT and our city is being decimated so you better stand by the funding. What is Trudeau going to do, say no? This is the absolute best time to revise to a more sensible and cautious approach.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Man, that Centre St. stuff is making our decision to buy a house in the SW look like a slam dunk win now.

Cause Macleod and Crowchild are such a dream to drive?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Torture

Cause Macleod and Crowchild are such a dream to drive?

Is the goal of all this construction to regress? Sure feels like it.

[Ahuch]

Originally Posted by zamler

Is the goal of all this construction to regress? Sure feels like it.

Calgary Transit Green Line, sponsored by the Calgary Puck ongoing c-train vs car thread

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by morgin

And who cares what conditions the feds put on the money. Go back and tell them it’s BRT and our city is being decimated so you better stand by the funding. What is Trudeau going to do, say no? This is the absolute best time to revise to a more sensible and cautious approach.

This is my thought, too. We are likely to get some other infrastructure spending soon - roll this [re]commitment into that and make it a win-win for everybody.

I come back to the new maintenance facility at Shepherd Crossing - I think we are seeing some combo of sunk-cost-fallacy (at least in terms of the planning time) and vested interests (ie. conflict of interest) that are keeping this boondoggle proceeding with little critical thought regarding changing conditions.