Violence in Gaza...

[Azure]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/821015.html

Is it time for international involvement?

[CaptainCrunch]

Why bother, you put peacekeepers in there, and you'll send half of them home in a body bag and probably unit the sides against them.

I really don't thing that the middle east is savable or even worth saving, I think the only thing you can do is contain it and let all the sides kick the crap out of each other until the violence burns out.

[eazyduzzit]

There will always be violence until both sides stop the arrogance. Neither side wants to back down, neither side wants to make concessions and both sides are just as much responbile for the violence. Until both strive to move away from these stances, none of this will ever end.

I also tend to be pro-palestine/liberal on this issue, which is a rare occurance as i usually side against the middle east/conservative.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

There will always be violence until both sides stop the arrogance. Neither side wants to back down, neither side wants to make concessions and both sides are just as much responbile for the violence. Until both strive to move away from these stances, none of this will ever end.

I also tend to be pro-palestine/liberal on this issue, which is a rare occurance as i usually side against the middle east/conservative.

From my prospective...Israel has conceeded much more than palestine....Look at Hamas....they will not be happy until there is no more Israel....how much concession do you want?

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

From my prospective...Israel has conceeded much more than palestine....Look at Hamas....they will not be happy until there is no more Israel....how much concession do you want?

I don't have the energy or time to get into a debate over this.

But over the years, Israel has been full of just as much brutality, conspiracy, arrogance, carelessness and violence as the other side.

Now that Hamas is in power, it gives the opposition a great argument, but things are the same now as they where pre-hamas government.

Anyways, this subject is just too complex for me to even begin a debate over it. I have on a few other boards but it tends to get very time consuming.

You win

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

You win

Yaaaaa

But you are right...it is very complicated....the point I was trying to make was it is hard to compromise with an organization that will not accept the right for Israel to exist....thats all I was getting at.

[Looger]

hamas and hezbollah are resistance organizations that sprung up to shoot back.

the initial agression from day one, going back to the late 1800s, has been what eventually became israel.

people always go to this 'both sides' stance and it just flattens me - blaming someone for the blowback, while giving a pass to the initial agressor.

THAT is the major issue here, the blank check to israel - there can never be peace until the financial and military forces backing israel put some asteriks on said support.

if the money train stopped today there would be peace tomorrow, as it is israel must ALWAYS knock down any arabs in their immediate vicinity that decide they want running water or electricity or self determination.

there can never be peace because the forces backing israel don't want it.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Looger

hamas and hezbollah are resistance organizations that sprung up to shoot back.

the initial agression from day one, going back to the late 1800s, has been what eventually became israel.

people always go to this 'both sides' stance and it just flattens me - blaming someone for the blowback, while giving a pass to the initial agressor.

THAT is the major issue here, the blank check to israel - there can never be peace until the financial and military forces backing israel put some asteriks on said support.

if the money train stopped today there would be peace tomorrow, as it is israel must ALWAYS knock down any arabs in their immediate vicinity that decide they want running water or electricity or self determination.

there can never be peace because the forces backing israel don't want it.

Why do you stop at 1800? Why dont you go back a little further....say 1500 to 2000 years back?

[Azure]

Because God knows all that military aid the US sends over makes ALL them suicide bombers go into Israel and blow themselves up.

Israel has been brutal too...I can agree with that, but how would we deal if suicide bombers would blow themselves up in crowded Calgary areas on an almost daily pace?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Why do you stop at 1800? Why dont you go back a little further....say 1500 to 2000 years back?

i'm talking aboot the current state of reprisals, that ancient past is the ancient past and the majority of jewish settlers moving to palestine before 1948 were ashkenazim, or european, jews.

people care more for who killed their father then who killed their ancient ancestor, this 'steady violence for millenia' is over-hyped crap.

the crusades etc. were bad, yes, but compared to what went on in europe or asia or pick your spot, the holy land just does not stand out in terms of strife and arabs and jews have coexisted across the middle east far more peacefully than many people scream aboot.

much of the mideast had been part of the ottoman empire and both arabs and jews were opressed and subjugated, there was some discrimination against non-muslims under the turks but that was mostly in the balkans where things were hot - point of fact the ottoman jews enjoyed a special status as facilitators and government bureaucrats, professionals, etc.

history just does not record this '2000 year feud' between jews and arabs over the holy land, they were both too busy being opressed by every one else.

[Looger]

i've also noticed people trying to link the phillistines from the bible to the palestinians, which is total garbage.

the region palestine was named by the romans to rub salt into judea, who put up such a heroic struggle that the conquerors really wanted to make an example.

the national entity of palestine was, previous to the creation of israel, a place with arabs and jews - the palestinian legion in ww2 for example was mostly jewish soldiers fighting for britain.

what the arabs currently living in palestine have to do racially, historically, spiritually, etc. with the old phillistines no one has been able to explain to me, were any of it relevant to people living today to start with. the arabs living there now are descendents of when arabs conquered most of the mideast centuries ago and it wasn't jews they were fighting, the phillistines were LONG gone.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Azure

Because God knows all that military aid the US sends over makes ALL them suicide bombers go into Israel and blow themselves up.

it's been said that when you step on someone's neck, don't be too shocked when they punch you in the balls.

Originally Posted by Azure

Israel has been brutal too...I can agree with that, but how would we deal if suicide bombers would blow themselves up in crowded Calgary areas on an almost daily pace?

good thing that the european settlers in north america were able to destroy the natives more completely than the zionist settlers in palestine, eh?

complete control of the land and the cultural genocide of punishing people for speaking the language of their forefathers was very effective and there really isn't much violent 'resistance', just the latent manufactured racism of legislative revenge.

[Azure]

So you support what the suicide bombers do?

Its alright for them to kill innocent women and children, because Israel deserves it?

Actually forget it, I know Israel is at blame for a lot of things going wrong in the ME, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the violence between in Gaza right now.

Even the Palestinians can't get along amongst themselves, and you think they'll get along with the Jewish state beside them?

Israel is not going anywhere, and its time all these fundamental radicals start realizing that. But God knows that will never happen. These people are hellbent on destroying Israel, whatever the cause.

Israel has given up the Gaza Strip, for what? More violence? More bloodshed? They avoided all of that a few months ago, no it turns around to slap them in the face.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Looger

i'm talking aboot the current state of reprisals, that ancient past is the ancient past and the majority of jewish settlers moving to palestine before 1948 were ashkenazim, or european, jews.

people care more for who killed their father then who killed their ancient ancestor, this 'steady violence for millenia' is over-hyped crap.

the crusades etc. were bad, yes, but compared to what went on in europe or asia or pick your spot, the holy land just does not stand out in terms of strife and arabs and jews have coexisted across the middle east far more peacefully than many people scream aboot.

much of the mideast had been part of the ottoman empire and both arabs and jews were opressed and subjugated, there was some discrimination against non-muslims under the turks but that was mostly in the balkans where things were hot - point of fact the ottoman jews enjoyed a special status as facilitators and government bureaucrats, professionals, etc.

history just does not record this '2000 year feud' between jews and arabs over the holy land, they were both too busy being opressed by every one else.

That is my point....the land really belongs to a multitude of groups....it is time these groups forget the past, realize the future (that means Israel will be there for ever) and work toward peace.

As Azure has said, each group has ownership in all the problems.....but each group has ownership in solving them. When Hamas decides that they will not recognize Israel.....well.....enough said.

[Flames in 07]

You know, over the years I've come to believe that if you really believe one side is right and the other is wrong ... and/or you are a apoligist for one side but look down your nose at the other you really don't know what is going on, nor are you particularly concerned about a solution.

[Calgaryborn]

Perhaps the leaders within that religion of peace(Islam) needs
to stand up and take control of the situation.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Perhaps the leaders within that religion of peace(Islam) needs
to stand up and take control of the situation.

All leaders do, the point is nobody has the courage to do so.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Perhaps the leaders within that religion of peace(Islam) needs
to stand up and take control of the situation.

Well when a country like Saudi Arabia is housing a fundamental group like the Wahhabis...

The violence inflicted because of Deobandi and Wahhabi religious ideology has been substantial. Among the thousands of discussions of Islamic fundamentalism since September 11, one statement sums up the religious connection: "Not all Muslims are suicide bombers, but all Muslim suicide bombers are Wahhabis." There is no debating the violence that this belief system has inspired and continues to inspire. Unfortunately, we have all become familiar with the names of terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Algerian Armed Islamic Group, Harakat ul-Mujahidin in Pakistan, and the Abu Sayyaf Group in the Philippines, all of whom have been linked to bin Laden. (For a complete list of terrorists and groups identified under Executive Order 13224, signed by President Bush on September 23, 2001, see http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2001/index.cfm?docid=6531 .) The violence perpetrated by these groups includes many incidents of suicide bombing, kidnapping, hijacking, and murder.

http://www.meta-religion.com/Extremi.../wahhabism.htm

[Azure]

The new IDF Chief of Staff Ashkenazi will be taking over in the next few weeks....and he will be under pressure for military action.

On Tuesday, HAMAS leader Meshal will be meeting with PA President Abbas to try and reach an agreement for the formation of a united government.

If they can't reach an agreement, Israel will be taking military action in the Gaza strip.

Then watch the UNSC quickly come together and draft a resolution that condemns Israel for military action.

[eazyduzzit]

Israel breeds suicide bombers through carelessness, doing whatever they please and making life hell for the other side. Israels strategies and policies only feed this hatred. As much as the Palestinians are at fault for breeding hate etc, Israel does it's fair share and just helps these religious nuts in the making of suicide bombers through their own wrong doing.

I've saw life first hand in several West Bank towns, and in Gaza. It's complete and utter chaos, these people have nothing and live in deciese infested areas with little or no power and little to no hygiene. Mainly because of Israels policy of pre-emptive strikes, strike at whatever costs, strike-anywhere, as well as their policy of demolishing homes of "Suspected" suicide bombers and their families. I don't really feel my family should be held at the mercy of my actions. Not to mention evictions from Palestinain West Bank land to make room for the expansion of Israeli settlements. The harrasment West Bank farmers go through on a daily basis as well as the loosing battle they fight in order to try and keep their land from the expansion of Israeli "security barriers" and Israeli settlements is ridiculous. One can only feel their pain and hopelessness.

Give me a room with running water and i'm living in a palace compared to these individuals. Life just is not worth living, and Israel does not realize this and that is where one of the biggest problems arise - extremism. These people have absolutly nothing and live with absolutly nothing and as a result, have the hope of absolutly nothing. IMO, It dosen't take much to convince these people to turn to extremism given the things they witness on a daily basis. At the end of the day, Israelis come home to warm beds, running water and peace. Palestinians have none of this, they live in squaller and are forced to deal with whatever Israel throws at them. There is no democratic process when it comes to this region, what Israel says, goes. As much as i am against extremism, it's far easier for an Islamic group to convince someone, based on all i've provided, as aposed to denying this with what little Israel accomplishes.

The 3 months i spent there, not one night went by that i didn't hear a strike of some sort by the IDF. Not one. Not one day did i wake up to see some sort of damage that goes un-compensated and ignored by the Israelis. Damage which cannot always be affored by the Palestinians as money is limited. A journey that should take 10 minutes takes 45-1hour as you have to go through checkpoint after checkpoint. All of which are un-needed checkpoints if the Israelis where not illegally settled in land that is not only not theres, but internationaly condemed. This is without the fact Israel tends to close checkpoints on a regular basis, rather freaquently really. So if you need to be somewhere...WORK for instance, but Israel chooses to keep a checkpoint closed, tough luck. Go home and count your losses -- but whats new?

The Palestinians are at the mercy of the Israeli war machine and they either do as told or get put in there place. Israel has the resources and means to do what they want, where they want and when they want with no real resistance. If they want a settlement at Point A, they will have a settlement there. If they want there "Security wall" to run right through Palestinian territory instead of around it, that is the direction it will go. There is absolutly no accountability what-so-ever on Israels behalf. If they make a mistake, all that tends to be said it "sorry". No inquiries, probes, nothing. Just a count your losses and move on, only problem is, these losses happen weekly and the Palestinians get no justice, nothing.

As much as i realize it's just as hard for Israel to protect it's self, nothing is getting through to them. The enviroment they are creating and the policies they are choosing are only making things worse and feeding this hatred. One step outside in some areas of this region is all thats needed to be said. Witness life for a week, you don't need someone to whisper in your ear propaganda and hateful slogans, the daily life speaks a lot louder.

Through my experiences, the majority of Palestinians have all lost a friend, family member or know someone who has. Not because they where suicide bombers, not because they where associated with the resistance, but because they got caught up in another one of Israels "pre-emptive" -"strike-first" attacks. Did these people get justice? No, they where just another victim of Israels careless tactics, because they don't want to face the real issues causing the violence. I have a friend who serves in the IDF and he is against some of the policies of "containment" they carry out, some of the things he tells me which goes on, what they are ordered to do and the strategies at hand and just out-right ridiculous and completely wrong.

Then theres settlements....but that is a complete different ball game. This is where the MAIN problem lies, little communities dotted all over land that is rightfuly not Israels, yet they are far too arrogant and careless to ever give it up. Main reason why is because Israel wants as much of the land as the Palestinians do, don't believe this myth that Israel is striving to peace and the Palestinians are the bad guys, both sides are fueled by deep religious backing. Israel wants Jerusamem just as much as the Arabs do, only difference is, Israel has the army and means to enforce there rule upon it. I'm all for a wall around the West Bank, whats shocking is Israels using this "security wall" to choose their own boarders, secure more land they desire and permanently shutting out the Palestinians to key areas, whether those be Water supply, or land rich in agriculture. Israel controls all water supply in the West Bank and Gaza and has evicted thousands of farmers from land.

The same week Israel was moving the insignificant Gaza Settlements, they where expanding those in the southern West Bank between one and two thousand units...."one step forward and two steps back." All that Gaza removal was for was to draw brownie points with the international community and the media, what they really want is east of there, the land they will never give up.

But who am i trying to kid...turn on the news. Another suicide bomber, another innocent Israeli is killed, god damn those Palestinians. This issue is just so much more complex than a lot of people realize. The things Israel gets away with stops at nothing short of insane.