Francis: Ward should lose interim tag and be hired full-time

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Look I'm not 100% on Ward either I just think BB is way over rated and has only done well in the regular season with top 3 type rosters.

You say the Flames don't have a top 10 roster yet since Ward took over the Flames have the 8th best record in the NHL.

So which is it? Did ward get more out of his roster (good coaching job) or do the Flames have a better than top 8 roster?

What's his record without shootout wins, which cant be counted on. Sample was too small for ward to truly judge but I wasn't a fan of his in-game management, construction of D pairings and lines or the idea that timeouts don't matter. Seriously do Peters and ward both hate hanifin? Why saddle our supposed highest ceiling dman with hamonic game after game? You know he was going back to that well after hamonic came back too. I mean I know you have to play hamonic somewhere unfortunately but on the 2nd pair with a developing dman? It was seriously painful to watch, cant imagine what Noah thought of it. 1.5 years of that pairing 1.5 years! It might not seem like much but that is a ridiculous amount of time spent trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and ward was there as AC last year watching that pairing get it's head caved in constantly. How did he not pick up on it?

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[dino7c]

The argument that both the coaches and roster are bad doesn't jive

Both Peters and Ward had this team playing over .600 hockey during their tenure...so if they did make major mistakes and held the team back the team must be pretty damn good. Flames have a top 5 winning percentage since the day Peters was hired.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The argument that both the coaches and roster are bad doesn't jive

Both Peters and Ward had this team playing over .600 hockey during their tenure...so if they did make major mistakes and held the team back the team must be pretty damn good. Flames have a top 5 winning percentage since the day Peters was hired.

Yet Gulutzan, Peters and Ward will all likely never be a HC in the NHL after Calgary. Why do you think that is? Just like Hartley, BSutter, Keenan, Playfair before them. And the litany of subpar coaches before them. It's a Calgary Flame tradition. Darryl Sutter is the only elite coach this team has employed in 30 years. He's probably the only good one period based on how it seems the rest of the NHL viewed the other dozen or so dudes after Calgary. The Flames have chewed through and destroyed the careers of like 12 coaches in 20 years. It's practically a death sentence to coach this team. Roster problem? Coach problem? Probably a bit of both.

Not going to call Peters or Ward .600 coaches though, no way in hell. Last year was a fluke where everything went right for 3 straight months then evened out until the worst playoff showing for this franchise in this century. This year we were propped up to the edges of the playoff race thanks to big save Dave's shootout heroics. I'm not giving Peters or Ward that any kind of credit for either year. The three electric months were great last year but you knew it would never last and sure enough. This year was one of the most frustrating years I've seen, Ward's 8th record or not. It was a small sample and as much smoke and mirrors as Hartley in 14/15.

As far roster goes are you suggesting it's better than average? Based on Oct 2018 to Jan 2019 and Ward's half season? Don't forget Feb 2019 to the Colorado debacle or Peters uneven start to this year. Don't toss the Gulutzan years either, they are relevant. When you take a step back and really look at the cold hard results from the last 4 years, it paints a picture. The results have been incredibly inconsistent and barely above average for a group all entering the swing zone of their prime at the same time sans Gio, our 2nd best player.

Ward's sample is too small to say he's a .600 coach. Too much shootout success not enough in regulation. Luckily Rittich was unreal this year in the SO that they accumulated enough points to stay in the fringes of the playoff race in a sad Pacific division. Really though that ROW number suggests they are pretenders. Hard to win 3v3 or in the shootout in the playoffs.

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[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Yet Gulutzan, Peters and Ward will all likely never be a HC in the NHL after Calgary. Why do you think that is? Just like Hartley, BSutter, Keenan, Playfair before them. And the litany of subpar coaches before them. It's a Calgary Flame tradition. Darryl Sutter is the only elite coach this team has employed in 30 years. He's probably the only good one period based on how it seems the rest of the NHL viewed the other dozen or so dudes after Calgary. The Flames have chewed through and destroyed the careers of like 12 coaches in 20 years. It's practically a death sentence to coach this team. Roster problem? Coach problem? Probably a bit of both.

Not going to call Peters or Ward .600 coaches though, no way in hell. Last year was a fluke where everything went right for 3 straight months then evened out until the worst playoff showing for this franchise in this century. This year we were propped up to the edges of the playoff race thanks to big save Dave's shootout heroics. I'm not giving Peters or Ward that any kind of credit for either year. The three electric months were great last year but you knew it would never last and sure enough. This year was one of the most frustrating years I've seen, Ward's 8th record or not. It was a small sample and as much smoke and mirrors as Hartley in 14/15.

As far roster goes are you suggesting it's better than average? Based on Oct 2018 to Jan 2019 and Ward's half season? Don't forget Feb 2019 to the Colorado debacle or Peters uneven start to this year. Don't toss the Gulutzan years either, they are relevant. When you take a step back and really look at the cold hard results from the last 4 years, it paints a picture. The results have been incredibly inconsistent and barely above average for a group all entering the swing zone of their prime at the same time sans Gio, our 2nd best player.

Ward's sample is too small to say he's a .600 coach. Too much shootout success not enough in regulation. Luckily Rittich was unreal this year in the SO that they accumulated enough points to stay in the fringes of the playoff race in a sad Pacific division. Really though that ROW number suggests they are pretenders. Hard to win 3v3 or in the shootout in the playoffs.

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Peters would most definitely have coached in the NHL post Flames if it wasn't for his racist history, so that doesn't count. Ward could certainly be on his way to becoming a regular NHL coach - his stint as interim of the Flames has gone well, it wouldn't surprise me to see him as an HC either when the season resumes or at some point in the future... GG? Possibly when the wheels fall off in Edmonton, but I don't know if that counts.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by timbit

Exactly the point you are making.

If your point is Ward = Berube because of coincidental circumstances of how they got their last head coaching job then I totally disagree. Berube had previous experience as a head coach whild Ward has not and his lack of experience did show. Berube also pressed all the right buttons with the Blues while Ward pressed a lot of buttons as Flames head coach with mixed often head scratching results.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Peters would most definitely have coached in the NHL post Flames if it wasn't for his racist history, so that doesn't count. Ward could certainly be on his way to becoming a regular NHL coach - his stint as interim of the Flames has gone well, it wouldn't surprise me to see him as an HC either when the season resumes or at some point in the future... GG? Possibly when the wheels fall off in Edmonton, but I don't know if that counts.

I wouldn't say Mr. One Playoff Win was guaranteed anything, racist background or not. Ordinary at best every year except one year in the nhl where he coached a 107 point team to getting annihilated by the 8th seed. No success at all in his career except in 2008 when he won the whl. Other than that what has he done to guarantee future employment? His career coaching record at all levels is the definition of mediocre outside of 2008

Ward is 58 years old and has been an nhl coach for 70 games and won at a .564 p%, though that includes the first bit of the season where Peters was still in charge actually sorry, hockey db had the wrong stat and I don't feel like digging any more. Regardless, unless the flames say he is their guy, I'm comfortable saying he's a career assistant type that hasn't been HC at any level since 2007. Probably not a bright future here.

Gully is the worst of the three and already burned through two chances at the nhl level at 48. He was a star in the echl but hasn't done anything of note since 2010 when he went to the AHL finals with Dallas's farm team which was actually pretty impressive given the roster. He coached both Dallas and Calgary to terrible results, I would say he made both teams worse than what they were on paper. He was lucky the 2017 flames managed that 10 game winning streak because without it, he's still a playoff virgin. That 10 game streak was a total anomaly too given the team finished 8 games over .500

Honestly think all three are toast at the nhl level. Peters exit was unique but in a results oriented industry, he just never really delivered at any level. 2019's regular season success was pretty well cancelled out by the massive playoff disappointment that season imo, where the flames played as bad as I've ever seen them in the playoffs and that's saying something. 5 games is a small sample but they were thoroughly embarrassed in 5 games after playing like garbage for 2.5 splid months leading up to the playoffs. I would argue his resume is actually pretty inferior to even Gulutzan who is probably considered a bottom 5 coach in flames history by our fans. I know hockey canada liked him but they also liked Bob Nicholson, one of the emptiest suits around.

[Resolute 14]

Ward's record is a result of a small sample size and significant skewing due to that initial win streak.

He is not a comparable to Berube. What he is, is a comparable to Gulutzan - especially in style. And I want none of that. I almost don't care who they hire, but it's time to stop shopping the discount bin for coaches.

[dino7c]

I'm fine with a new coach, not BB for me though

Bad coaches and bad roster=top 5 winning percentage over the last season and 2/3rds doesn't make sense though. If the coaching was that bad the roster must me pretty good.

Put it this way...what are your expectations if the Flames hire the guy you want?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I'm fine with a new coach, not BB for me though

Bad coaches and bad roster=top 5 winning percentage over the last season and 2/3rds doesn't make sense though. If the coaching was that bad the roster must me pretty good.

Put it this way...what are your expectations if the Flames hire the guy you want?

Accidental thank. My expectations aren't terribly high anymore, the boat has almost sailed on this group. Soon a new team will need to be constructed around tkachuk, lindholm, and I guess Monahan. We need more elite talent, not sure how they will ever get it. I would trade everything and rebuild personally but I'm not satisfied with middling results. Cant even build around tkachuk in a rebuild because BT botched his contract so bad he's probably going to file for arbitration and leave if things aren't trending right.

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[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Accidental thank. My expectations aren't terribly high anymore, the boat has almost sailed on this group. Soon a new team will need to be constructed around tkachuk, lindholm, and I guess Monahan. We need more elite talent, not sure how they will ever get it. I would trade everything and rebuild personally but I'm not satisfied with middling results. Cant even build around tkachuk in a rebuild because BT botched his contract so bad he's probably going to file for arbitration and leave if things aren't trending right.

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Well you don't make much sense...if the coaching is a problem a new experienced high end coach should improve the Flames. They already have a decent record.

No point in debating with you, everything is terrible...fold the franchise

oh and your welcome

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Well you don't make much sense...if the coaching is a problem a new experienced high end coach should improve the Flames. They already have a decent record.

No point in debating with you, everything is terrible...fold the franchise

oh and your welcome

The record this year was a mirage imo. The coaching is average. The roster is average.

Everything is not terrible, just directionless, mediocre and stunted. I think a good GM could probably turn things around but it seems BT is here for the long run.

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[Calgary4LIfe]

What teams are currently in the hunt for a new head coach?



There are only 31 teams in the league - soon to be 32. How many are looking to hire a new coach?



How many of these teams that are looking for a new coach are poised to compete now? How many of these teams are in their actual 'window of contention'? It isn't that the Flames are a perfect team and that the only reason that they haven't won a cup is due to poor coaching - this team has definite holes to be sure. However, out of all the rumoured teams out there to be looking for a head coach, I doubt there are many - if any - that have the following:


1) Commitment to spend to the cap
2) A very solid, and with the exception of Giordano, a YOUNG core
3) Solid defence
4) A history of 5+ years of drafting well (go ahead and compare throughout the league)


Sure, there are definite question marks. However, this isn't a rebuilding team, nor is it a 'soon to be rebuilding team'. This is a team that is a winning team now, and that with a few moves, could become one of the best teams in the league in short order.


So, unless a particular coach has a certain personal disdain for the Calgary Flames, the City of Calgary, or Canada in general, I don't see why the Flames shouldn't be considered one of the most popular landing spots for coaches if indeed a change is going to be made.


Sure, there are going to be some big moves this upcoming off-season - in my view, the most important being that of T.J. Brodie, but the Flames are a pretty damn good team on paper, are less than 1 calendar year past from being the 2nd best regular season team in the league, and SHOULD be a team that is still rising and in that compete window.


Plus, contrary to popular belief, the Flames aren't cheap on coaches. Maybe they were back in the 1990's and early 2000's, but I don't think they have been since Darryl Sutter came in, grabbed this organization by the scruff of the neck and forced them into game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. They just absolutely suck at picking coaches, IMO.


I expect Treliving to hire a more experienced head coach. This team is one that should be competing for the cup, not competing for a wildcard spot. I am sure that he will hire someone who is experienced with a more proven track record.


Remember one thing that was said when Treliving fired Hartley - he didn't blast Hartley really for being 'too tough', but rather that he wants the Calgary Flames to play a certain way and that he felt a lot of the wins were 'lucky'. Watching the Flames under Ward, I felt that this team was often 'lucky' to win at times as well too often. The advanced metrics that Treliving alluded to at the time seemed like the 'official' basis on why he fired Hartley, and the same can be said of Ward, even though those two iterations are night and day different in regards to top end talent and on the depth spectrum. I don't see why his approach would change now.


The only way Ward stays is if he has a good argument as to why the performance of the team was due to factors such as not being able to change the system fully after taking over mid-way through the season, and not having the appropriate types of players needed to really play said system - things like that.



With the available coaching hires, coupled with how attractive the situation is in Calgary as compared to other possible options helps me to conclude that Calgary will probably be changing coaches this off-season.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

The record this year was a mirage imo. The coaching is average. The roster is average.

I agree that the record this year was a mirage. The team is much better than their points total, but also not likely as good as they finished last season. The truth lies somewhere in between: better than 95, but not quite as good as a 107-point team.

I disagree that the roster is merely average. The collection of players is better than most, and should have performed better this season. My hope is that a new HC gets the best out of this group.

[jayswin]

Is this Flames roster really "better than most" though? I like some players on this team but when you look around the league, almost every team has a couple really good d-men and 2 or 3 really good/star top 6 forwards.

And I think every team's fans look at those versions of their own players and think "man, we've got some really good players!!".

[jayswin]

The difference from middling to contending teams seems to be some combination of 2 star centers/1 scoring, 1 two way centre/4 star top 6 forwards/3 star defenseman/all star goalie

Imo, we're at least one star, scoring forward/two way scoring centre/elite goalie performance that covers warts away from being a contender, possibly two of those.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Is this Flames roster really "better than most" though? I like some players on this team but when you look around the league, almost every team has a couple really good d-men and 2 or 3 really good/star top 6 forwards.

And I think every team's fans look at those versions of their own players and think "man, we've got some really good players!!".

So the coaches have done well despite lack of talent?

lol you guys want to bash the Flames both ways

Team is top 5 in win percentage over the last two seasons despite what many seem to think was horrible coaching

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree that the record this year was a mirage. The team is much better than their points total, but also not likely as good as they finished last season. The truth lies somewhere in between: better than 95, but not quite as good as a 107-point team.

I disagree that the roster is merely average. The collection of players is better than most, and should have performed better this season. My hope is that a new HC gets the best out of this group.

Much better? They were carried by shootout wins. I think they are a 90-95 point team that got extremely white hot from oct 2018 to jan 2019. We have some nice peices, some good players but so does every team. What separates average/above average from elite is how much elite talent you possess. I would argue we are lacking in that regard. We possess an above average amount of good players but a below average amount of elite guys. Ideally you have both but you need elite talent to be elite. No one on this team has elite potential except Giordano (fading) and Tkachuk imo. Everyone else is too one dimensional with the exception of Lindholm. A team with Gaudreau and Monahan as your supposed two best forwards isn't winning anything unless you add prime Kipper and Iggy to the mix.

[dino7c]

The team was on pace for 95 points in a year that nearly the entire team was having an off year and was directed by two horrible coaches apparently

Yet you say that is the ceiling

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The team was on pace for 95 points in a year that nearly the entire team was having an off year and was directed by two horrible coaches apparently

Yet you say that is the ceiling

Off year or regression to the norm?

In my eyes

Gaudreau 75-85 point player
Monahan 60-65 point player
Lindholm 60-65 (two dimensional)
Tkachuk 60-70 (the best forward but not recognized as such)
No other true top 6 forwards, except maybe backlund who is 45ish but he is in decline or will be soon. Mangiapane and dube may get there but I see them as solid 3rd liners. Ryan is good but old and small. Bennett and Janko are fringe as is Lucic. Pretty average group overall when compared to the rest of the nhl.

The D is goodish as long as Giordano can ward off father time. But it is now uncertain as well with the 2D brodie gone, valimalki uncertain and hanifin stalling out. Andersson is a great peice going forward but not elite. Hamonic leaving will help but they need a body to replace.

The goaltending is average but I'll take that

I maintain it is an average roster that mostly is what it is. It won't decline any time soon due to the age of the core but it also unlikely to improve.

[dino7c]

Average roster, terrible coaching

95 points

Makes sense