Spoilers allowed - Star Wars Episode IX

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

if the Marvel formula is proven to make ALL the money, why would the studio stray from that template? they are so risk averse that they won't even touch anything that is not an already established universe/IP, but they thought Star Wars was the perfect platform to experiment with quirky directors, social agendas, and lore revamp?

I cannot imagine how an executive at Disney read the script for TLJ and thought to themselves "yes! this is the thing that is going to push us past the box office take for TFA and dependably line shareholder pockets!"

Do any of the Star Wars movies strike you as having any semblance of a coherent plan or strategy?

The story is a mess, the characters are thin, uninteresting, haphazard and completely interchangeable and disposable.

The real question is this: Did they think they could do better than the Marvel Formula while putting in less work and effort?

Or did they think they were just going to be swimming in a Scrooge McDuckian Vault 'O Cash regardless of whatever swill they deigned to slap onto the silver screen?

I genuinely dont know the answer. Looking at Disney's track record through Marvel tells me that they're not afraid to take risks on story, cost or length, or spend big for actors and production.

So what was it? My personal opinion is that they put their faith in JJ Abrams and it turns out that hes a talentless hack and a vapid charlatan.

Once you get past all of the flashy lights, endless action sequences and scenes fired at you with dizzying speed you quickly realize that there really isnt any substance there.

[blankall]

Star Wars felt more like Pirates of the Caribbean than Marvel. Marvel really tried to push that zany fun adventure earlier on. It was not so great, and they corrected course. Not sure why they wouldn't edge more towards the Marvel model, that balances the zaniness with substance. The only issue with applying the Marvel model is that the humour only works in the Marvel series, because the actors themselves are excellent and have the proper timing. You can't expect Driver, Riddley and Boyega to compete with RDJ, Hemsworth and Pratt.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Endgame was far from a masterpiece. A lot of boring stretches. Really, it's the characters that carried the film, wanting to know their fates, more than the story itself, which was kind of drab.

Infinity was definitely more entertaining and well made.

But again, Marvel tops out at "fun" and tends to plateau there, so at least a high floor generally. But its ceiling is also limited, and hasn't brought us anything really groundbreaking since the very first set of films. They have a formula that puts people in the seats and keeps them from complaining generally. The sweet spot for any studio, but also a box for creativity.

The new Star Wars was aiming for the moon. Wanted to hit a home run on just about every front, and make every fan's dreams come true. Its aspirations were too ambitious, too soon. They jumped in before really considering every angle of what they were doing. Handing out future films to directors left and right, thinking they were on to something after TFA. Didn't take the time to flesh out the characters and plot cohesively and allow the vision to percolate long enough to get it right from that basic storytelling standpoint.

You know the more I think about it, the more you are really right. There were way to many story elements happening at the same time, in the first movie TFA it some what jived together, but after that it just became a mis match of story moments.


The problem is that a lot of the story elements in the first movie didn't match to the second movie, and then the third movie ignored or discounted the second movie to the point where the third movie was an apology for the mess of the second movie story line wise to the point where I'm convinced that Palpatine was an emergency hot shot fan services that probably wasn't in the original plans for the Trilogy.


I mean it got to the point that it felt like there were bad transmission moments where things were so jarring.


Ie Ren let the past die, the past comes back in Palpatine, and Ren is onboard with it until his dad comes and talks to it.


The big ending moment from the TLJ with the little kid with the broom came to nothing.


The whole, the flame of the resistance has died, then suddenly they have a thousand ships.


The Snoke was a puppet, Palpatine was back.



It was almost like the trilogy was a house built by Homer Simpson without enough load bearing posters.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

Do any of the Star Wars movies strike you as having any semblance of a coherent plan or strategy?

The story is a mess, the characters are thin, uninteresting, haphazard and completely interchangeable and disposable.

The real question is this: Did they think they could do better than the Marvel Formula while putting in less work and effort?

Or did they think they were just going to be swimming in a Scrooge McDuckian Vault 'O Cash regardless of whatever swill they deigned to slap onto the silver screen?

I genuinely dont know the answer. Looking at Disney's track record through Marvel tells me that they're not afraid to take risks on story, cost or length, or spend big for actors and production.

So what was it? My personal opinion is that they put their faith in JJ Abrams and it turns out that hes a talentless hack and a vapid charlatan.

Once you get past all of the flashy lights, endless action sequences and scenes fired at you with dizzying speed you quickly realize that there really isnt any substance there.

Its funny to me because as bad as Lucas was at writing dialogue and at some point consistent pacing. And even individual story elements. When you look at the OT, it was one really good coherent story. With the PT, it was one really clear coherent story line.


Say what you will about Lucas, but he builds worlds, and he knows how to string multiple movies together. We might not like individual elements but at the end, we can go, that Trilogy made sense.


I can't say the same with the PT, it was mismatched, and they didn't get people in charge that could step back and look at how things were strung together. The ST really did need someone like Lucas that could over see the whole story.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

if the Marvel formula is proven to make ALL the money, why would the studio stray from that template? they are so risk averse that they won't even touch anything that is not an already established universe/IP, but they thought Star Wars was the perfect platform to experiment with quirky directors, social agendas, and lore revamp?

I cannot imagine how an executive at Disney read the script for TLJ and thought to themselves "yes! this is the thing that is going to push us past the box office take for TFA and dependably line shareholder pockets!"

Yeah. Whichever old dogs gave that script/pitch the thumbs up are the ones that need to be replaced if they want the universe to succeed in the future similar to marvel.

How can you trust these powers that be to greenlight the right people and scripts when their judgment to this point has painted them into this corner where they now must take a hiatus from the films.

They need to step aside when it comes to the creative process, get some brilliant minds that understand today's audience and care about constructing well thought out narratives to handle that and have full autonomy.

If there was as much tampering in JJs films as there was rumored to be, then they're doing this whlle thing very wrong.

These individuals behind the Mandalorian thankfully seem to have the chops when it comes to telling interesting new stories while staying true to the universe they're telling them in. They've warranted work on more projects I would say.

[CaptainCrunch]

Dave Filoni understand Star Wars at a high level, both in terms of Lore and Construction. It helps that during Clone Wars he consulted a lot with George, not in terms of specific things but the over arching story and characters.


He also leaned really heavily on a guy named Leland Chee who was Lucas Arts Keeper of the Holocrons, a nerd so powerfully immersed in Star Wars Lore and Stories that its rumored that he's actually a Sith Lord.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Dave Filoni understand Star Wars at a high level, both in terms of Lore and Construction. It helps that during Clone Wars he consulted a lot with George, not in terms of specific things but the over arching story and characters.


He also leaned really heavily on a guy named Leland Chee who was Lucas Arts Keeper of the Holocrons, a nerd so powerfully immersed in Star Wars Lore and Stories that its rumored that he's actually a Sith Lord.

Begs the question yet again why they didn't let these uber nerds do Episodes VII-IX.

It's a shame. I watched TFA multiple times, the Rogue One came out and excitement was at an all time high. TLJ just #### all over everything and TROS was a sad attempt at cleaning up the mess. I felt like Cartman's mom in the Make Love Not Warcraft episode (you know the part).

I watched TLJ and TROS once and that's enough. No compelling story to revisit. Sad.

[CaptainCrunch]

So now it turns out that Palpatine was a clone, his son was a clone as well. I agree with the above, With the OT and even the PT, I went out and bought the DVD's and watched them mutiple times, and even would have like an annual Star Wars weekend. I bought TFA, but I don't think I've even taken it out of the wrapper. I bought TLJ and same thing. I don't even know if I want to buy TROS except out of some weird obligation to complete the set.



I thought it would change with the Disney Channel and the ease of access to it, but I just haven't felt the need to watch the ST. I've watched Solo and Rogue one more then once, I can't say that my interest in Star Wars has died. I still look forward to the Mandalorian and Clone Wars. I loved the last few years of Rebels, but Resistance was just a poorly done animated series.

[icecube]

Star Wars is a memory. It's dead now.

Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.

[sureLoss]

So technically Rey is Palpatine's genetic daughter.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yes, and its funny because they're saying that Rey's father was a useless powerless failure. Yet Rey is an Uber Jedi. So now the question is was the mother an uber Force user.


I was close to right after the first movie, I felt that Rey was possibly a Anakin or Palpatine clone based on the careful light sabre choreography in the first movie that matched a lot of the Palpatine vs Mace fight in ROTS. I also thought that she was tettering on the Dark Side and they even had her sneer at the downed Ren.


However, I'm still not entirely happy that they bought back Palpatine like they did, and then beat him in the way that they did.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yes, and its funny because they're saying that Rey's father was a useless powerless failure. Yet Rey is an Uber Jedi. So now the question is was the mother an uber Force user.

Which wouldn't be surprising if that was the case. Given that Palpatine kept his "son" alive to continue the bloodline, he would probably try breeding him with another strong force user. Maybe even using his master manipulation skills to make them fall in love with each other.

[CaptainCrunch]

HA


https://news.avclub.com/breaking-new...sex-1842107102

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Which wouldn't be surprising if that was the case. Given that Palpatine kept his "son" alive to continue the bloodline, he would probably try breeding him with another strong force user. Maybe even using his master manipulation skills to make them fall in love with each other.

His Son was probably a typical horny teenager who had been stuck in a evil Sith Temple for his whole life.


Palpatine Jr - "What's that Daddio"


Palpatine - "Its a girl, you should like totally say hi, you know chat her up, totally have sex with her"


Palpatine Jr - "Dad what's . . . "


Palpatine - "DO IT"

[CaptainCrunch]

Its funny that you can take a lot of Palpatine quotes and with a simple word change make him out to be a complete pervert


"There is a great disturbance in my Pants.” “I have felt it.”


"Use your aggressive feelings Boy"

[blankall]

Rey's dad was a failed clone of Palpatine? I kind of liked the idea of Palpatine using a lab to impregnate a woman, thus making him actually his son.

[CaptainCrunch]

I had these two things in my head.


After TFA that Rey had been a altered clone of Anakin, created by Palpatine if Anakin failed as an Apprentice or died. She had been stored at the Observatory on Jakku, and somehow had been freed, but had no memories of Anakin, just his unbelievable pre Vader power.


After TLJ, I had the same idea that Rey was an altered Clone of Palpatine to be released as part of the contingency in case Palpatine faltered or died.


At some point Rey would remember who she was.

[Coach]

I think the clone thing is lame.

I think her being a nobody (like Anakin was) would have been the best path. If she had to be connected to the family story, Kylo's sister.

Just didn't like the whole return of Palpatine angle at all. And even if that's what JJ wanted to do from the beginning, Johnson didn't develop any of it so he should have adjusted instead of trying to squeeze two movies into one.

If you want to do a Palpatine return angle, maybe keep it in your back pocket for a future Episode 10-12 series?

[Locke]

I think the real concern is that they're so creatively bankrupt that they have to keep going back to plumb the depths of the well that is the already established characters.

"Sure, lets make Rey Palpatine's Grand-Daughter, and we'll get some clones in there....what else can we shoe-horn in?"

That Well is now well and truly dry.

[blankall]

Generally, I don't like the cloning of force users idea. If they can be cloned, why hasn't someone created an army of them yet?