I have no faith at all that fighting will disappear from the game organically. We've just recently learned how ingrained "hockey culture" is and what is required to change it. Outlaw it officially and give it black and white punishment standards, which should then include suspensions. To combat the myth of "self-policing" and dirty hits, revamp and employ a DOPS that actually takes their purpose seriously and start levying proper consequences.
The hypocrisy of eliminating targeting the head while openly allowing targeting it with fighting is astoundingly stupid. It's a paper straw with a plastic lid stupid.
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Fighting is an interesting one to me. While it's definitely dangerous, the whole sport is.
But I find this approach to be a bit much
Are we going to let players hit this hard?
Are we going to let players skate this fast?
Are we going to let players shoot this hard?
Are we going to let players play without cages?
Are we going to let players play without neck-guards?
I couldn't agree more that someday 2 men chucking fists at each other standing on ice could turn into a fatality... but so can multiple factors that go into the game
The point, and we can discuss it without the hysteria of death, is... was it part of the game? In cases like this one, I believe the answer is no.
Fighting being allowed in the game seems necessary sometimes when things boil over. A lot is happening out there and a lot of player safety relies on respect. If a hard hit, the scoreboard, or the refs aren't earning that respect... a good punch in the chops is an effort to take control. But a fight for giggles or to 'turn the momentum' can go in my opinion.
Problem is... how? If you remove fighting, you better make sure you're officiating the game a lot better than you are now or I fear that you'll see a lot more liberties taken on the ice. So those of you who are still comfortable watching a player get stretchered off the ice with an oxygen mask over his face, I have one question for you. Y’all know somebody is going to die from a dirty elbow someday, right?
Is there any actual data that shows that fighting is an effective deterrent for other types of dirty plays?
You are right that there are other dangers in the sport but the difference is fighting doesn't NEED to be in the sport. It's an unnecessary danger.
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So players feel the need to protect themselves because the league doesn't do it sufficiently. The league should be taking comments like these very seriously.
I actually think that if fighting was truly banned, the league would be forced to truly crack down on all the dirty play that goes uncalled by the referees, which I think would lead to more consistent refereeing overall.
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I have no faith at all that fighting will disappear from the game organically. We've just recently learned how ingrained "hockey culture" is and what is required to change it. Outlaw it officially and give it black and white punishment standards, which should then include suspensions. To combat the myth of "self-policing" and dirty hits, revamp and employ a DOPS that actually takes their purpose seriously and start levying proper consequences.
The hypocrisy of eliminating targeting the head while openly allowing targeting it with fighting is astoundingly stupid. It's a paper straw with a plastic lid stupid.
TRUTH! I was at A&W the other day, and they handed me a paper straw. I asked them when they switched, and she said quite righteously "a few months ago, its better for the environment". I asked them when they would be changing the lids to paper. The lady looked at me and thought about, and seemed really surprised that it never occurred to her before. I asked her also if their patties were being shipped to them wrapped with wax paper now too. Off topic I know, but yea, "water box thingy (that contains plastic)" kind of stupid
"Does fighting still have a place in today's NHL? My answer is a qualified yes," Iginla wrote in this week's issue. "I temper my response because I don't know of any player who truly loves fighting. Ideally it would not be a part of the game. But the nature of our sport is such that fighting actually curtails many dirty plays that could result in injuries."
Are there more injuries in Europe where there is no fighting?
Nobody stays seated or doesn't cheer when a fight happens.
Loudest I've heard the Dome all year was the goalie fight against the Oilers and that was one of the Flames worst games of the season.
Sure.
I don't think that's how this needs to be evaluated.
At one point human beings cheered on as people were devoured by lions.
People can be pretty savage.
I would also say that it's hyperbole to say that nobody doesn't cheer. More people are starting to turn against fighting. I go to games. I don't cheer.
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If you take away fighting, then the way to get back is laying out a dirty hit. I think we can agree that no one wants that.
So no, fighting should stay. Fighting takes two to dance, so when you accept the fight then you are agreeing to possibly get injured in the fight.
Simply put, if you don’t want to fight then don’t. But, I think it’s still a good part of hockey but has to be used in the right way. The number of fights have decreased substantially over the years, so it appears that many hockey players are choosing the first option.
Ask the question to the NHLPA. No matter what the league says the PA gets a vote and they are the ones who continually vote down rule changes, like facemasks and fighting.
The biggest two-faced people in this debate are the players themselves.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev
TRUTH! I was at A&W the other day, and they handed me a paper straw. I asked them when they switched, and she said quite righteously "a few months ago, its better for the environment". I asked them when they would be changing the lids to paper. The lady looked at me and thought about, and seemed really surprised that it never occurred to her before. I asked her also if their patties were being shipped to them wrapped with wax paper now too. Off topic I know, but yea, "water box thingy (that contains plastic)" kind of stupid
Wow, you must've felt really great sticking it to a woman making minimum wage who has no say in those decisions.
She'll think twice before she answers your questions again.
What did the manager say when you asked to speak to him?
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Simply put, if you don’t want to fight then don’t.
this isn't really true, as Tkachuk proved recently that if he legally hits a guy and doesn't drop the gloves immediately after, then opposing players, media, and fans label him a p**y turtle or worse. so then after that he has to go out and fight like 3 games in a row just to salvage his reputation. not fighting may sound like an option but currently hockey culture says otherwise.
Ask the question to the NHLPA. No matter what the league says the PA gets a vote and they are the ones who continually vote down rule changes, like facemasks and fighting.
The biggest two-faced people in this debate are the players themselves.
Haha yup. I'd only been in a few fights on the ice and I always got the freakin' wheels beat off me. Still love hockey fights to this day
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personally i hate the goon v goon fights and the fights after a big hit.
i do not mind the two guys in heated battle in the corned and a spontaneous fight breaks out. i am also not sad hen i watch a game and there is no fighting.
it wiould be interesting to see a survey of players and their thoughts. it would also be interesting to stratify the data a bit in terms of the top 100 or so players versus the bottom 100 in terms of skill
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Haha yup. I'd only been in a few fights on the ice and I always got the freakin' wheels beat off me. Still love hockey fights to this day
There will always be some players who don’t want to fight but appreciate the guys who do. I fought the odd time too and at times didn’t always win, But it definitely brought the team together to play for each other especially when they see it wasn’t our enforcer doing it. When it was done spontaneously out of a heated battle most of us would laugh about it after the game.
We had a guy who came from the LNAH in Quebec and he loved dropping the mitts. It was crazy to see. I still don’t understand it this day. But he was a blast to have on the team.
What will happen in the future, I don’t know. But I still do like fights as well.
Last edited by soulchoice; 02-28-2020 at 12:04 PM.
...Simply put, if you don’t want to fight then don’t. But, I think it’s still a good part of hockey but has to be used in the right way. The number of fights have decreased substantially over the years, so it appears that many hockey players are choosing the first option.
There are 36 posts in this thread and I have yet to see a compelling argument as to what part of the game fighting contributes. There is the same old canard about "respect" and "policing" and how the threat of a fight supposedly curtails dirty stick work and dangerous hits. But that's just noise. There is not a single point of data in a hundred years of hockey to suggest that fighting serves any purpose at all but to senselessly provide an outlet for angry men to vent their on-ice frustrations, or to satisfy the blood-lust of the onlookers. On the first point, grow up. We should all have learned by middle school that the solution to any problem is not to punch it out through clenched teeth of anger. On the second point, if we are still as a society so enthralled by violence, then that is to our collective shame.
It needs to stop already.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Is there any actual data that shows that fighting is an effective deterrent for other types of dirty plays?
You are right that there are other dangers in the sport but the difference is fighting doesn't NEED to be in the sport. It's an unnecessary danger.
I'm not a big data guy, so I'm not sure what data would be out there
But I like one example for a couple of reasons
Johnny taking wacks on the wrist was a pretty frequent issue for Johnny, and unsurprisingly resulted in an injury - on purpose.
So in this I see a need for fighting (in this NHL), and the effects of not fighting or even threating anything physical
The best solution is properly officiating games and penalizing offenders properly. But it seems like we're miles away from seeing that. Watching that game was madness and it was clear that Johnny was getting hurt eventually - and we were waiting for it all year. No one on the Flames roster seemed upset that it was happening, and it seemed as if they wer tolerating the wacks until he ended up injured. It was insane, and something needed to be done about it.
This year we haven't seen much of it. Has the NHL been policing it properly? Or has Rinaldo and Lucic sitting on the bench altered the mindset of a player like Staal?
I hate to bring Francis into this, but an article on this incident had an interesting tidbit that disagrees with me
Quote:
[...]
Even if the Flames sprinkled Brian McGrattan, Milan Lucic and Wayne Simmonds throughout their lineup, it wouldn’t stop the age-old tactic of laying lumber where playmakers are most vulnerable – the hands, wrist and arms.
“He’s still going to get slashed – that’s still going to happen,” said Brouwer of the ancient age of nuclear deterrents.
“You can’t protect guys against every little thing that happens on the ice. You can stand up for him, but fighting isn’t as prevalent in the NHL as it was, so as a result guys are going to get those extra whacks. You can go talk to (the offenders) but at the end of the day if a guy on the other team that’s giving him a whack doesn’t want to fight you’re not going to be able to fight him.”
But now with more beef here, we actually do see those extra wacks subsiding I think. In an odd way, wacks-to-wrist data might back it up?
But is the option for someone to punch him or a teammate in the head a deterrent? Or is the NHL doing a better job? In the end, policing things properly deters the dangerous plays that prompt these responses in the first place. Fights for show or momentum should have gone decades ago. But I think 'allowing it' (it is penalized, and discouraged still) is improving safety in a primitive but unfortunately necessary way
I agree with what some are saying above, and I think we're just seeing the AHL a few years behind as players in that mould pass through. Your pure fighters don't have much of a place in the NHL anymore, and the AHL is the collection of junior players built to that mould and NHL players being pushed out. McGrattan getting KO'd as he toiled in the AHL also comes to mind.
So while you don't have pure fighters giving us impromptu mid-game boxing matches - Gio, Tkachuk, Rinaldo, Hamonic, etc occasionally fighting still feels necessary
Fighting is an interesting one to me. While it's definitely dangerous, the whole sport is.
But I find this approach to be a bit much
Are we going to let players hit this hard?
Are we going to let players skate this fast?
Are we going to let players shoot this hard?
Are we going to let players play without cages?
Are we going to let players play without neck-guards?
I couldn't agree more that someday 2 men chucking fists at each other standing on ice could turn into a fatality... but so can multiple factors that go into the game
That's not really relevant.
Just because other parts of the sport are dangerous, that's not relevant in determining the necessity and danger of fighting.
That's like the old "I know guns kill people, but so do knives & hammers, are we gonna ban those too?"
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I'm not a big data guy, so I'm not sure what data would be out there
But I like one example for a couple of reasons
Johnny taking wacks on the wrist was a pretty frequent issue for Johnny, and unsurprisingly resulted in an injury - on purpose.
So in this I see a need for fighting (in this NHL), and the effects of not fighting or even threating anything physical
The best solution is properly officiating games and penalizing offenders properly. But it seems like we're miles away from seeing that. Watching that game was madness and it was clear that Johnny was getting hurt eventually - and we were waiting for it all year. No one on the Flames roster seemed upset that it was happening, and it seemed as if they wer tolerating the wacks until he ended up injured. It was insane, and something needed to be done about it.
This year we haven't seen much of it. Has the NHL been policing it properly? Or has Rinaldo and Lucic sitting on the bench altered the mindset of a player like Staal?
It seems pretty clearly to me the former. This video was made over three years ago, and Rinaldo and Lucic hadn't played a single game with Gaudreau since just this past fall. After that game in Minnesota in which Gaudreau had his finger broken, the Flames met with the League and they aired their grievances about it. I am supremely confident that if there was any dramatic change (I am not convinced there has been) it had everything to do with this, and nothing to do with the arrival of two on-ice enforcers three years later.
Quote:
[I]...But is the option for someone to punch him or a teammate in the head a deterrent? Or is the NHL doing a better job? In the end, policing things properly deters the dangerous plays that prompt these responses in the first place. Fights for show or momentum should have gone decades ago. But I think 'allowing it' (it is penalized, and discouraged still) is improving safety in a primitive but unfortunately necessary way
I agree with what some are saying above, and I think we're just seeing the AHL a few years behind as players in that mould pass through. Your pure fighters don't have much of a place in the NHL anymore, and the AHL is the collection of junior players built to that mould and NHL players being pushed out. McGrattan getting KO'd as he toiled in the AHL also comes to mind.
So while you don't have pure fighters giving us impromptu mid-game boxing matches - Gio, Tkachuk, Rinaldo, Hamonic, etc occasionally fighting still feels necessary
The only reason anyone thinks it is necessary is because we have been steeped in a century-old culture that has enabled this aspect of the game to fester needlessly. The solution is to alter the way people think about the game, think within the game, and to drill in to everyone once and for all that fighting is just not acceptable in any non-life-threatening context.
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